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Comment by Niki on April 18, 2013 at 2:40am

Mike - but my point is that I HAVE told them they are wrong.  They then told me I was wrong.  So, what next?  Cut them out of my life?  No - not an option for me personally.  So in that regard, I respect the boundaries and the topic is off limits in my family.  When it comes to others, I'm more than willing to debate/argue/disassociate myself from them.  If you can cut people you love and who love you out of your life for this issue, that is your prerogative.  My original point was that when MM (yes, I agree he is a hypocrite) made the statement about respecting meat eaters, it resonated with me on a personal level with regard to my family.

Comment by Mike on April 18, 2013 at 2:24am

Plus they are being super hypocritical. Come to Raw Food World - promoted by supposed "vegans" - selling cruelty products. WTF.

Comment by Mike on April 18, 2013 at 2:24am

Niki - if they find it patronizing to be told they are wrong I would say that is extremely arrogant. If you are wrong and you can't handle being told it, well, that's really childish.

Comment by Mike on April 18, 2013 at 2:23am

No offense but that's for me too much tolerance for people who are doing the wrong thing and harming - causing cruelty - to animals. I like what Harley said once in a video, that he used to eat maccas and one day someone said to him "Mate that f**king s**t will give you cancer", and what I mean is I used to do the wrong things in my life, and I wish someone had come up to me then and told me straight so I would have had a chance to correct it earlier rather than finding out the hard way. It's the easy approach and the softly softly don't offend attitude with people like Matt that just enables their bad behaviour. IMO, just my opinion... he needs to hear it straight and get the proverbial slap on the face that he deserves, it's his best chance to cotton on to the fact that this is real and real harm is being done.

Comment by Niki on April 18, 2013 at 2:19am

Ah - very good point.  I do not mean to hide behind my "love" for my family as a way to condone their behavior.  It is the exact opposite.  They know how I feel, and I know how they feel, and in order to maintain a relationship, we simply cannot discuss it any longer.  From their perspective, the idea that they "need to be told their are wrong" is incredibly patronizing.  When I tell them they are wrong, they tell me I'm wrong.  Stale mate.  Sure, we have the scientific evidence to back it up (or so I think), but so do they (or so they think).  Anyway, sorry to derail the discussion of Kerrymac's excellent video!

Comment by Chris P. on April 18, 2013 at 2:10am

I think the things is they need to be told they are wrong somehow, not necessarily by you. I think that's where the whole "good cop/bad cop" thing comes into play. It could be that they have already stumbled onto vegan stuff and like you said, all that needs done now is seeing the example and they will come around.

I think I "get" what you are saying about loving your family more than animals and yet as I go along, I increasingly come to find that we don't really have to frame it that way, it's kind of artificial. We love our families AND we love the animals and yes that does not let us off the hook when one loved one is hurting the other, and that is not a bad thing, because it needs to be addressed somehow.

Comment by Niki on April 18, 2013 at 1:52am

Chris, I agree with everything you say - and I know that the origins of this debate come from MM's hypocrisy.  I love Harley and Freelee for their unwavering commitment to ideals, and am thankful that people like them are willing to be so "in your face" about it.  I'm more of the "lead by example" type, and I am not ashamed of that, nor do I feel like I am somehow failing the movement.  I mention vitriol because I have seen so much of it from both camps!  Food is such an emotional/religious/ideological/ethical issue for so many.  As for "needing" to tell people that what they are doing is wrong?  Well that hits directly on the point I was trying to make.  I will not walk into my uncle's home and tell him what he is doing is wrong.  I will not walk into my mother's home and do likewise.  Then my only option is to never go into their homes?  No, not an option for me. Like I said, I love them more than animals. 

Comment by Chris P. on April 18, 2013 at 1:34am

@ Niki, I wouldn't assume people here are going to throw vitriol at you and I also would not view people disagreeing with what you said or pointing out logical inconsistencies in it as vitriol. There is room for a wide range of opinions. I think it would be kind of silly to expect vegans on a vegan forum to be like "Oh that's OK mate, your family should keep eating meat, that makes sense". Some will think (as I do) that you can probably do more good by not cutting yourself off from them, but others are going to think that to really be true to your ideals you should cut yourself off and even that it may also end up doing your family good. There is actually something to that in some cases, and as with so many other issues I see in diet, it is something that also rages through religious communities.

The way I see it, the reason Matt is being called out is not because he is trying to be inclusive, in fact I think that having some vegans who are inclusive and some who are "in your face" is actually a good way to shake people awake and then give them someone they can relate to, to help them in. But I think Matt is being called out because of the animal products he is selling even while touting himself as a raw vegan. That's kind of like having police selling illegal drugs or running prostitutes, there is actually room for debate over whether or not drugs and/or prostitution should be legal, you just don't expect to see law enforcement openly making money off of them while they are illegal, it goes against their position.

Harley comes off as harsh to some people, and yeah he doesn't sugar coat what he says, but if you listen to his words, what he wants is for Matt to stop selling deer velvet and other animal products, not that he wants to hurt Matt and Angela or anything like that. But in the end it just doesn't make sense for a vegan to be profiting from selling animal products.

Also respecting a person as a person does not mean respecting their choices or actions, again with a religious comparison, hate the sin, love the sinner, because most all of us come from the same place anyway and make a lot of the same mistakes, etc. We can respect people while telling them what they are doing is wrong, and it's a lot more effective than hating the people and telling them what they are doing is wrong, but in either case, they need to be told that what they are doing is wrong. Then in my opinion anyway, they have to make up their minds for themselves. It may take a while, it did for me, I wish it hadn't but that's just the way it was.

So you say to respect people who eat meat because otherwise they are loving and compassionate, I say repect the "mean vegans" for the very same reason.

I think we can do both, and still make a lot of progress.

Comment by Niki on April 18, 2013 at 1:13am

Ok, I know some people will get mad at me, but I have to agree with one point MM makes.  His point about respecting the (whatever) percentage of people who eat meat resonates with me.  Before you send your vitriolic words my way, hear me out:  I come from an immigrant family of farmers who raised both crops and livestock for food.  All of my uncles and my stepfather hunt and are committed meat eaters.  They are NOT the types who pull into Rotten Ronnie's twice a week for triple bacon cheeseburgers - they hunt once a year and feed their families from the catch for the year (and I'm sure they also supplement from the local butcher).  They know precisely where the meat has come from, how it has been treated, etc.  I fought with them for years about this, and our debates devolved into arguments, fights, and then outright hostility.  This was not worth it for me.  I love my family more than animals.  They are very good people who love wholeheartedly, are compassionate, and (mostly) respectful of others.  This is a situation where I am no longer vocal - I respect their ideological differences on this, simply because they are too important to me.  We now avoid the subject altogether.  When it comes to others, I am very vocal about the health problems associated with animal products.  Some of you may be willing to turn your back on family or friends who find our way of life too radical, but I cannot.  Plus, the impact I've had by just living by example (again, only where my family is concerned) has had positive results.  After years of arguing with my mom about meat and dairy, I silently walked the walk, and she is now taking notice and asking about it.  She even read an article on the dangers of dairy, and asked me about it.  I didn't say "I told you so", I didn't make her feel bad for her choices, I just talked about my positive experiences.  This issue is far from black and white or right and wrong.  And to compare meat eaters to Nazi genocide or silently leading by example as somehow invalid or just as bad is simply disrespectful to Jews and the figures like Ghandi and the Dali Lama.  

Comment by Pau Casas on April 17, 2013 at 8:49pm

Great video, very eloquent :)


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