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I've read the only source of taurin that is necesary for cats is animal products.

Also they need certain vitamin D (not D2 found in vegetables) but D3 found in meat

Anybody knows anything about this? i would love to make my cat vegan but i honestly need help !
Also, sometimes i think that fisiologicaly speaking, its totally natural for them to eat animal products.

I would love if someone tells me im totally wrong, because i dont think its good to be part of the suffering of all the animals in the meat industry, but i think its not natural either to suplement.

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Cats are natural carnivores.  This is different form a dog because they are omnivores.  Cats do not eat plant food in the wild (except for some grass here and there to settle the stomach).  With that said, cats do need taurine, but all the taurine in cat food is completely synthetic.  The processing of the animal foods destroys the taurine, so they add it in synthetically.  Because of this, there are a few brands of vegan cat food, that even my vet suggested.  I put my cats on the Evolution brand vegan cat food for a while.  But because I knew that a vegan diet can mess up the ph balance of cats, and not all cats can handle this, I watched them closely. 

 

After several months on a vegan diet, my male cat developed crystals in his urethra due to the vegan diet.  It took two surgeries, and several days of him having a catheter to heal this problem.  I decided, at that point, that it simply wasn't worth it to put my cat's life in jeopardy for my own ethical choices.  I made the decision to give my cats a home, and I became responsible for their health and lives.  No matter how I look at it, I can't justify harming them for my choices. Needless to say, they eat a very healthy carnivorous diet, and no longer have any health issues. I don't like that I'm participating in the death of other animals, but I can only do my best. 

 

I don't say this to scare you.  Some cats can do really well on a vegan diet.  But not every cat does.  If you're going to switch your cat, I suggest you read the book "Obligate Carnivore" so that you have all the information.

'Not matter how I look at it, I can't justify harming them for my choices.'

-so how do you justify killing hundreds if not thousands of other sentient beings so your precious little cat can have his meat???

No matter how we look at it, killing a bunch of innocent animals to keep another one alive is immoral.

I agree.  But it's not the cat's fault.  ALL lives are important.  Every single one of them, including those of my cats who are ALSO sentient. I can't justify harming any animals.  And I'm certainly not trying to justify the death that must occur for my cats to eat.  I did what I could to make them vegan, and it was a failure.  So as a pet owner, it is my RESPONSIBILITY to take care of my cats.  Part of that responsiblity includes feeding them and keeping them healthy.  They are in MY care.  Other animals are not.  Therein lies the difference. No one is perfect, and I can only do my best, which is to personally obstain from all animal products.  I'm not about to watch my cats die very painfully and slowly from urinary complications when there is something I can do about it.

It's not easy for me, and I certainly wish things were different.  But these cats were rescues, and while in my care, I have little choice.  Either I feed them meat, or they're going to have to get it somewhere else.  Regardless, lives will always die to feed a carnivore. That's how it works.  Now when they pass away, hopefully from natural causes at old age, I have no plans on getting another.  Except that I also worry about all the other homeless pets in the world that count on people like me, with a heart, to care for them.  How do I justify ignoring them?  Right now, fortunately, I don't have to answer that question.

You're so quick to jump in and defend "hundreds if not thousands of other sentient beings," but why would you not also defend my 2 cats, who are just as sentient?  The mass amount of lives lost is just as important as a single life lost.  All matter.  Saving the life of 2 cats may not make a huge difference in the world, but it certainly makes a world of difference to those 2 little cats.  So before you start calling me immoral, how about you offer a realistic suggestion? 

amy, i don't understand the logic you employ here (even though i appreciate your sincerity):

The mass amount of lives lost is just as important as a single life lost.  All matter.  Saving the life of 2 cats may not make a huge difference in the world, but it certainly makes a world of difference to those 2 little cats.

if it makes a world of difference to 2 little cats, then surely it make a world of difference to the mass amount of lives lost to feed those 2 little cats (in fact, even more so).

how about you offer a realistic suggestion?

well that's already been presented in this group - veg diets for cats.

cats are not natural carnivores as you state. carnivore is merely a taxonomy based on physical traits. dogs are also carnivores not omnivores since there is no taxonomy "omnivora".

omnivore is merely a behavioral term and pretty well all creatures can be omnivores - including cats. in fact, if you look at the food ingredients of commercial cat food, you'll get a pretty good idea just how 'omnivoric' cats really are! :D

cats do not need meat to survive - they do need proper supplementation. cats don't die because they aren't fed meat. that's a rather primitive superstition. (nor do they need to get urinary problems whether they are eating veg or meat-based diets).

if you let go of that superstition after proper investigation, you will be quite happy to help more cats without supporting the slaughter of other sentient beings. generally, cats don't have it nearly as good as dogs in the 'rescue dept', so there is a great need to help them ... but it does not have to be done at the expense of other beings. you are a caring person and i know you have the best interests of all beings at heart ... you also do have a mechanism to materialize it!

if you want to give it another try with your cats, we may be able to help since we do have some experience in this area (as do many others).

if you don't, that's ok too. however, it is inappropriate for you to argue with rawbert since the ethical scenario he is presenting is quite correct ... even by your own standard that every life matters.

in friendship,

prad

As stated previously, I did attempt to switch my cats over to a vegan diet.  I did all the research. I'm not at all unfamiliar with every argument and reason.  I know them all. I did at least a year's worth of research before and during their time on a vegan diet.  I think you think I'm uneducated?  I can assure you, I am not. 

My female cat did just fine on a vegan diet.  It was just my male cat that suffered greatly from ph balancing issues.  Even in the book "Obligate Carnivore," the author's research suggested that about 15% of cats are not able to thrive on a vegan diet. My male cat happened to be one of those few.  I tried switching brands, I tried switching wet/dry options, I even tried the ph supplement you can buy.  Nothing worked.  He simply couldn't urinate!  That's why he had TWO surgeries instead of one.  After the first, I changed things up, and it didn't work.

My reason for giving this advice is to warn people that SOMETIMES it just doesn't work.  Cats in the wild eat meat.  Any vegetation they eat is severely limited, and they would not actually survive on it.  This is common knowledge. I would hate to see a cat suffer and die because someone listened to this advice without doing all the research.  And even then, you can have all the knowledge in the world, but things simply don't work out the way you expect.  My male cat would be dead right now if I had continued to feed him a vegan diet.  It's that simple. I would be responsible for that. 

Again, in this world we live in, it's nearly impossible to do anything without an animal suffering.  For example, the rubber in our car tires has animal byproduct so even if you yourself don't drive, your fruit has to use the transportation system to get to you.  It's impossible to be 100% vegan in a nonvegan world.  I refuse to be responsible for the death of an animal in my care, so I do the only ethical thing I can do, and that is FEED him.

I've considered this ethical dilemma for a very long time.  I continue to not feel good about it, but I also realize that when your options are limited, sometimes sacrifices have to be made.  If you were in my position, with my cat's problems, and you continued to feed him a vegan diet even though he couldn't urinate at all (100% blocked up), I would turn you in for animal abuse.  Simple as that. 

hi again amy!

i don't think you are uneducated and i'm sure you did the best you could. however, jed gillan's book is from the past (2003).

however, urinary tract problems happen to cats fed meat diets too, so your reasoning using that isn't really correct. the fact that it doesn't seem to happen now after 2 operations in fact suggests that it was the operations not the diet that 'solved' the issue.

My reason for giving this advice is to warn people that SOMETIMES it just doesn't work.  Cats in the wild eat meat.

this is the appeal to nature fallacy. cats in the wild also don't do as well or live as long as their domestic counterparts. i also think your advice is misleading since it concludes that veg may not work with some cats since it appears not to have worked with yours. better i think to find a way to have it work than prematurely jump to such conclusions.

I've considered this ethical dilemma for a very long time.  I continue to not feel good about it, but I also realize that when your options are limited, sometimes sacrifices have to be made.  If you were in my position, with my cat's problems, and you continued to feed him a vegan diet even though he couldn't urinate at all (100% blocked up), I would turn you in for animal abuse.

do you see that you would be turned in for animal abuse before you got to do that for supporting the slaughter of many animals to feed your cat? (assuming we actually had equitable laws, of course :D)

possibly, you need to consider the ethics a bit more since you are quite willing to kill many for the sake of one. i wonder if you had rescued rabbits whether you'd be willing to butcher them to feed your cat? usually, people support such slaughter because they don't do it themselves ... they get someone else to do the dirty work.

in any case, to support the killing of animals for pet food is contrary to 30bad guidelines, so it is inappropriate for you to continue to advocate such actions.

in friendship,

prad

I am not at all advocating the support of killing animals for pet food.  In fact, I think people should at least TRY to put their cats on a vegan diet. Most will do very well!  It is the best thing, and if they thrive, all are better for it.  But it is not something you can do easily or simply.  They must be carefully monitored for ph problems.  You seem to kind of dance around my issues, and that's fine.  I know what you're saying really is for the best, and I appreciate it.  But you didn't have my experience.  You didn't have to watch your cat squat in pain all over the house.  You weren'te there in the exam room with the vet.  You didn't see the bloodwork.  That was me.  So again, if you can offer me a diet that won't affect a cat's ph, I will 100% put it into action.  As it stands, none of the vegan cat food brands balanced his ph levels.  Not a single one, not even with supplementation.

 

"the fact that it doesn't seem to happen now after 2 operations in fact suggests that it was the operations not the diet that 'solved' the issue."

Yes, his operations cleared the blockage.  But the operations have nothing to do with ph levels.  This was monitored and checked everytime we made a switch.  When you don't have all the information, and there is a lot, it's hard to make a good case.

"do you see that you would be turned in for animal abuse before you got to do that for supporting the slaughter of many animals to feed your cat?"

I am in total agreement that the slaughter of animals for food is horrific.  I wish it WAS classified as animal abuse. Sadly, though, it is not. 

 

I think we are in complete agreement on the morality of this issue.  I don't LIKE feeding my cats meat, and I definitely make a big ordeal out of it everytime I do.  I'm not advocating for it at all.  I think if a vegan diet works for your cat, please do it!  I've yet to find something that won't screw up his ph levels and block his urethra.  When I do, I can guarantee you that I will be the happiest person alive.  As more and more brands are making vegan cat foods, I can begin testing them.  For now, until a better future, my cat remains on a very expensive prescription diet. 

BTW, I am not at all trying to argue with anyone.  I am in 100% agreement that a vegan diet is best.  I'm simply trying to offer up pertinant knowledge from my own experience.  I'm not saying all cats will have this ph problem, and most will probably thrive on a vegan diet. But when you encounter a cat that doesn't, sometimes you have to make ethical decisions that you may not like.  For me, it's either feed my poor cat a diet that allows him to balance his ph levels, or get rid of him.  Getting rid of him is simply not an option because I believe in forever homes. He's been through enough. If you can find me a vegan diet that will allow him to have a balanced ph, I'm all ears.  But I will say, it's unlikely since I've tried nearly every option available.  My vet was even very knowledgable about vegan diets for cats and tried to help me find a solution.  Sadly, the only thing that got his ph levels right was a traditional cat diet.

I would love if someone tells me im totally wrong, because i dont think its good to be part of the suffering of all the animals in the meat industry, but i think its not natural either to suplement.

carolina, there is nothing wrong with supplementation. in fact, all cat food is supplemented by necessity and has been since around the 60s which is one of the main reasons why cats live longer these days than they did in the past.

the taurine you are talking about is rarely from 'natural' sources - it is synthetically produced:

taurine is mostly chemically synthesized by one of 2 processes: using aziridine and sulfurous acid or a process involving isethionic acid. this is how most taurine is produced because it's cost-effective.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:653326

or more here:

Synthetic taurine is obtained from isethionic acid (2-hydroxyethanesulfonic acid), which in turn is obtained from the reaction of ethylene oxide with aqueous sodium bisulfite. Another approach is the reaction of aziridine with sulfurous acid. This leads directly to taurine.[18]

In 1993, approximately 5,000–6,000 tons of taurine were produced for commercial purposes; 50% for pet food manufacture, 50% in pharmaceutical applications.[19] As of 2010, China alone has more than 40 manufacturers of taurine. Most of these enterprises employ the ethanolamine method to produce a total annual production of about 3,000 tons.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine

a veg diet for cats is healthier than a meat based one for various reasons, some of which have been covered in this thread and more can be found here:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/vegan-cats

providing your cat with a properly supplemented veg diet is likely one of the best things you can do for him/her. we've had 10 cats over the past 12 years (4 right now) and they are all rescues, so they usually come in not the best of conditions. everyone shows excellent improvements when they change their diet (you'll find more details in the vegcat thread above, but ask if you have any specific questions).

in friendship,

prad

Eric Weisman of Evolution Diet:   http://evolutiondietstore.com/main.sc said he's been feeding cats vegan for 20 or 30 years, successfully.  I just filled out a contact form asking him about anything on his site about this subject and for the source of the taurine he adds to his line of food.  I'll let you know what I find out. 

Trish

'But it's not the cat's fault.'

-of course not.. it's your fault, you're killing them chicken and fish and pigs for petfood

'ALL lives are important.'

-indeed, so please stop taking them away and stop justifying your actions with your PH anecdotes.. put down the knife NOW if ALL are important.. stop being a hypocrite.

Amy.. you're not saving ANY animals at this point, let's make that perfectly clear for all the readers.

If you let your cat die of starvation, then you start saving lives by not killing other animals to feed him..

But there's no need to  let him starve of course, because as prad pointed out there are real options out there that work. For all the cats. Even for the 'special PH' ones like yours.. some of them might have conditions that require medical attention and it can take time to adjust to a new diet, but just as every single human can thrive on a vegan diet, every single cat can thrive on a properly supplemented plant-only diet.

Just a heads up for everyone:

Any subsequent comments that advocate killing for pet food will be deleted.

on behalf of prad:

amy, i'll reply to both your posts here.

BTW, I am not at all trying to argue with anyone.

well you sure had me fooled. :D

anyway, here's the gist of it. feeding your cat the bodies of other sentient beings is not ethical even with the rationalization:

So as a pet owner, it is my RESPONSIBILITY to take care of my cats.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:3631875

that's sort of like saying it is my responsibility to take care of my child, even if it means oppressing other children to do it.

if your cat got its own food, then you could at least claim that you were not participating in the victimization of other animals. however, by supporting the slaughter of other animals to feed your cat by buying the "traditional cat diet", you are indeed engaging in an unethical activity.

there's no point in trying to whitewash it with stuff like

you have to make ethical decisions that you may not like

or

You're so quick to jump in and defend "hundreds if not thousands of other sentient beings," but why would you not also defend my 2 cats, who are just as sentient?

or

using absurd tu quoque items like you drive cars on tires that have animal products in them.

so again, i bring you back to the possibility of your rescuing rabbits. would you feed your rabbits to your cat? it's a peculiar dilemma, but easily solvable.

better, if you had acknowledged directly what you eventually do here in a variety of ways:

I am in total agreement that the slaughter of animals for food is horrific.  I wish it WAS classified as animal abuse. Sadly, though, it is not.

I think we are in complete agreement on the morality of this issue.  I don't LIKE feeding my cats meat, and I definitely make a big ordeal out of it everytime I do.  I'm not advocating for it at all.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:3631922

without the run around attempts at justifying your actions by attacking rawbert's points or reporting me to the authorities citing animal abuse. :D

furthermore, you presume too much without checking:

You seem to kind of dance around my issues, and that's fine.  I know what you're saying really is for the best, and I appreciate it.  But you didn't have my experience.  You didn't have to watch your cat squat in pain all over the house.  You weren'te there in the exam room with the vet.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:3631922

actually, we did have the urinary problem with one cat (my mother's). not only was i with the vet listening to her rather illogical reasoning patterns, i marched into the operating room when i heard the cat yowling in pain because the vet had his limbs pinned down by assistants while she was expressing him with a syringe through his uretha without sedation. needless to say, that was the end of our association with such a vet. the cat is fine btw and 9 yrs vegan - the only good thing the vet did was to clear the struvite crystals.

If you can find me a vegan diet that will allow him to have a balanced ph, I'm all ears.  But I will say, it's unlikely since I've tried nearly every option available.

may be, but options keep appearing. you might try hoana's phi supplement. evolution isn't that good a bet anyway due to potential inadequacies in the supplementation (may be different now - don't know):

nutrient integrity of evolution

in any case, if you are willing, i'm quite happy to go through what you've tried and may be we can find a solution - after all, that's part of the idea behind this group to assist people who have vegpets.

if not, that's fine too since whether your cat goes veg is an irrelevancy. what isn't an irrelevancy as far as this forum goes is that we don't post support of unethical practices which imprison, exploit, abuse and murder sentient beings.

in friendship,

prad

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