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I've just started cooking for my dog and immediately his pH turned alkaline. It was perfect before on his meat-based kibble. I've been cooking him a combination of beans/lentils/squash as the base. I'm concerned about urinary problems if I can't fix it.
I'm waiting for my supply of vege-dog to arrive. Is this going to solve that problem once I start adding that? What can I do in the mean time to try and keep him acidic?? I read that cranberries, garbanzo beans, lentils, peas, brussell sprouts, asparagus can help with acidity. Does anyone have experience and know if any of those will really help??

Also, will vege-dog keep his calcium:phosphorus:magnesium levels proper? Does anyone have a specific calcium supplement they can recommend in the mean time?

I had his blood tested before I switched him..and everything was absolutely perfect. I'm pretty worried about messing him up..

Please help!! Thanks so much in advance

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hoana's vegedog likely has everything your dog needs. we have a 15yr old shepperd/husky (veg for 14yrs with us) still going strong who eats both hoana and ami. the hoana is either garbanzo or lentils as per the suggested recipe with vegedog mixed in. certainly hoana's cat supplement kept our cats' urine acidic without any issues. you can talk to peden if you want at hoana for further info:

http://vegepet.com/contact_us.php

in friendship,

prad

Right, I meant to include that I have emailed them, yesterday, just wanted to see if I could get any answers quicker from here.
So you do a combo of making food/pre-made food ? Ami is a kibble, I think? Do you get him checked out at the vet?
Happy to hear he's going strong at 15 though (: a little reassurance for me, thanks

So you do a combo of making food/pre-made food ?

yes. we've had 2 dogs:

The Rikster

The Pig Dog

riky (lab/shepperd/rot) lived to almost 13 and jumpr's doing well as mentioned.

both have had veg all except for the first year of their lives (before we got them from the spca).

jumpr has eaten ami and hoana for the past 3 yrs and before that both had evolution (and some hoana).

we think ami is much better than evolution, but we think the hoana is probably the best because we know what goes in there.

Ami is a kibble, I think?

yes.

Do you get him checked out at the vet?

never! we don't trust vets anymore than we trust doctors. neither seem to be able to reason logically. we've come across some good vets on rare occasions, but beyond spay/neuter we stay away from them. i think that's likely one reason our animals don't get sick and die well (you can read about some of them in the same section as the rikster, pig dog group).


Happy to hear he's going strong at 15 though (: a little reassurance for me, thanks

properly supplemented veg diets tend to put far less stress on the system than meat-based ones (which mostly have veg in them too as well as some really weird stuff as you likely know). that in combination with no vaccinations, plenty of exercise, good company (birds, rabbits, cats, humans etc) and his own genetics, likely keep him wanting to stay around. :)

i don't know why his urine went alkaline, but may be he needs to be transitioned slower. see what peden says - he's been really good over the past decade and a half that we've known him.

in friendship,

prad

Does a dog's urine have to be acid?  Thanks, Trish

apparently it's not a big deal that the ph goes a bit alkaline:

http://www.vetinfo.com/vets/answers/high-dog-urine-ph-should-i-worry

it seems to be cause to some extent by high carbs according to some:

Alkaline urine may be caused by diets containing high carbohydrates or high percentages of grains. It may also be caused by the addition of excessive amounts of alkalizing medications to the diet.

http://www.acreaturecomfort.com/canineurineanalysis.htm

the 'ideal' range seems to be around 6.5 which is about what it is for cats - high ph can cause struvite crystals while low ph can cause oxalate crystals. generally, though one has a fair range to play with ... interestingly for humans too whose 'ideal' is surprisingly 6.4 (same as dog/cat) at least according to this source: http://www.biomedx.com/pH/page3.html

(it's an interesting article)

also ph tends to vary within the same day sometimes, so unless one get consistently extreme results for dogs, cats or humans, chances are there is not much to be concerned about (all other things being equal).

in friendship,

prad

Thanks!

Ugh. Vets. I hear ya. I went to my vet prior to switching him to get him checked out..I asked to talk to someone about a vegan diet..$75 later and no advice, except: "Don't do it" basically. At least when you go to the doctor and get bad advice it doesn't cost a fortune :\

I haven't heard anything back yet..so I've added some kibble back in, in the mean time. He was back on the good side of pH balance yesterday so that's good

Thanks for being so thorough. (:

you are welcome, smf.

i see you are in vic, bc. there is possibly a sensible vet in that city - he actually recommended a meat-free diet for an activist friend of mine's cat (who could handle protein from a hydrolized soy source - but not meat). that's actually how i found out that there was at least one mainstream pet food company that was offering meat-free food for cats! (the company doesn't offer it any more, because they had to cutback on many of their products a few years ago due to financial issues, i vaguely recall).

if you want, i can try to contact my friend and get the person's name and contact info.

so I've added some kibble back in, in the mean time. He was back on the good side of pH balance yesterday so that's good

ya you might try a bit of ami kibble to see if that changes the ph. it would be interesting to know if the change is a result of the lack of meat content or the 'presentation' (ie kibble).

in any case, it is likely that if you transition slowly, things will work out without sudden variations.

in friendship,

prad

Oh yes please! Thank-you! That would be awesome, if it's not too much trouble. It would be nice to have someone supportive to turn to if I should need to go to the vet again.

So I talked to some people in the pet store yesterday - she said that the only pH to worry about is the one first thing in the morning. (That one he has been perfect with, so yay) But I've also read you need to take an average of throughout the day...there's so many different opinions on everything - sure makes it hard!!

She also said that the calcium:phosphorus ratio isn't AS important at his age (5.5yrs) because he's not developing anymore. So maybe I'll stress a little less about that one...but I still don't want to take my chances with it. 

Finally she said, (I told her I was feeding beans/lentils as the main protein source) to watch out on the lentils because they're high in carbs, and dogs don't need carbs.

So, HMmm.

I've been wondering about something else now though - with the vegemix, is it really only meant to used with their recipes? It's okay to add to my own recipes right? I'm a little bit confused there. ( I also never got a response from them)

ok - i've emailed my friend and will get back to you as soon as she provides contact information.

there's so many different opinions on everything - sure makes it hard!!

ya everyone is an expert these days. :D

watch out on the lentils because they're high in carbs, and dogs don't need carbs.

whether dogs 'need' carbs or not, is irrelevant since they do very well eating carbs as evidenced by the ingredients of even meat-based pet food.

you might find this fairly recent swedish study interesting:

The genomic signature of dog domestication reveals adaptation to a starch-rich diet

The domestication of dogs was an important episode in the development of human civilization. The precise timing and location of this event is debated1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and little is known about the genetic changes that accompanied the transformation of ancient wolves into domestic dogs. Here we conduct whole-genome resequencing of dogs and wolves to identify 3.8 million genetic variants used to identify 36 genomic regions that probably represent targets for selection during dog domestication. Nineteen of these regions contain genes important in brain function, eight of which belong to nervous system development pathways and potentially underlie behavioural changes central to dog domestication6. Ten genes with key roles in starch digestion and fat metabolism also show signals of selection. We identify candidate mutations in key genes and provide functional support for an increased starch digestion in dogs relative to wolves. Our results indicate that novel adaptations allowing the early ancestors of modern dogs to thrive on a diet rich in starch, relative to the carnivorous diet of wolves, constituted a crucial step in the early domestication of dogs.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html

now you'll get the "feed meat" group getting all upset about it arguing as best they can against it in blogs:

http://www.theoptimaldog.com/2013/07/31/evidence-round-up-do-dogs-n...

or even this vet who tries to give it a 'fair' chance, but then concludes:

"I believe that when it comes to the canine diet, we are witnessing evolution in action. Rare, mutant dogs can somewhat handle the high carb diets we feed them, while the rest of the pets are sickened by them. After analyzing this study, I still think that ancestral diets are best for the majority of dogs."

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/research-proves-it-dogs-thrive...

efforts such as these are founded on two primary fallacies:

Appeal to Consequences of a Belief

Appeal to Nature

in the western world, we've had nearly 3 decades of veg dogs living healthy (much, much longer in places like india) ... in fact, healthier than meat-fed dogs according to a 1998 survey of 300 dogs which you can find by following the links in this thread:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/vegan-dogs

or here:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:425662

we have the COMMITTEE ON NUTRIENT REQUIREMENTS OF DOGS AND CATS stating that vegan diets are fine for dogs:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:653379

you have various vets endorsing meat-free diets:

http://www.vegepets.info/

we have most major dog food producers offering a vegan line (and it sure ain't because they've had an ethical awakening - it's because many dogs can't handle the stuff in their meat-based products).

so concerns about carbs in this day and age really amounts to superstition. :D

I've been wondering about something else now though - with the vegemix, is it really only meant to used with their recipes? It's okay to add to my own recipes right? I'm a little bit confused there. ( I also never got a response from them)

peden sometimes requires more than one email. :D

we've found this to be true even though we've communicated with him for many years.

just keep trying and if you don't get a response by your 4th effort, let me know and i'll try on your behalf.

imho, you should follow their recipe with vegemix. i don't think you should have a problem with your own recipes because dogs tend to be very robust due to their omnivorous evolutionary development over 50000 yrs, but peden's diets have been analyzed for their content balance. you can find some of the recipes here:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:910120

one supplementation to keep in mind especially if you have a large dog is l-carnitine and/or taurine:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/xn/detail/2684079:Comment:769263

vegedog has sufficient of the latter i recall peden telling me, so your dog should be fine, but you may want to follow the links anyway since you certainly want to research all angles!

in friendship,

prad

my friend has replied:

====

Otter Point Veterinary Hospital - Dr Erik Wirtanen - Sooke, BC - 6830 ...
www.canpages.ca/page/BC/sooke/otter...dr-erik-wirtanen/5422394.html
Find Otter Point Veterinary Hospital - Dr Erik Wirtanen and other
Veterinarians. Maps, directions, reviews, and contact information at
Canpages.ca


 Dr Erik Witanen He is originally from Finland He has amazing knowledge and
never over medicates . He always offers options ect and discusses
alternatives and he is always frank and honest His  Fees are very reasonable
Otter Point his now his clinic His staff are lovely

 He is truly fantastic ad had been my vet for almost 7 years however he in
Sooke He has saved the life of three of my beloved animals Its a 20 -25 min
drive for me from Langford but it's worth it I would not change him for
anything

====

i do not know this vet, but sarah (www.cfawr.org) has spoken very highly of him consistently over the years, so he's likely a good bet!

in friendship,

prad

Thanks for being so prompt in getting back to me, it's much appreciated (: I'm sorry I'm not nearly as quick! I honestly got a bit overwhelmed by all of the links to go through - but I've been working on it!

Right, they can do well on carbs..and I certainly don't see it harming them by any means. But I still think they should have more protein/fat calories than carb. ..Which is hard to do! I'm feeding him a base of things like beans/lentils/peas but calories from carbs is still dominating big time.
I understand lots of time and effort was put into creating those recipes..but I'm not convinced to go with them :\ I feel better feeding him beans and lentils than a mixture of flours. It just doesn't seem like there's enough whole foods in the recipes..kudos to dogs though for being so flexible, so we can each do what we feel is best for them (:

I've read that l-carnitine can be produced by dogs with sufficient amounts of methionine and lysine ! What those amounts need to be though I'm not sure of yet though.

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