30 Bananas a Day!

honey was the last animal product i gave up. i always was cool with it cos i thought it was ethical and the bee's got a house to chill, live and work in. but then i spent time on my mates organic farm. its australia's largest certified organic farm in terms of fruit tree diversity.

to harvest the honey we had to smoke the bee's and wear a protective suit otherwise they will sting your bum! i remember weeding near their hive once and forgot they were there and then a small swarm just hit me on the head and i hit max heart rate running away from them! lol! anyways, back to why i stopped consuming bee products. i saw so many legs in the honey. dead bee's and i wondered what we would feed them instead as they only produce as much food as they need. we fed em sugar water. but it was organic sugar...lol!

the bees didnt want to give up the honey. they fought with their life unless we smoked em silly and they were to toxed out to fight back.
they need sufficient amounts of honey to produce healthy immune systems, fuel and young.
they do the hard work and work HARDER than any animal on earth and i was stealing their food simply cos i wasnt eating enough sweet fruit calories.
honey always made my teeth feel sore. i thought it was the fruit but when i gave up honey, my teeth were cool again.
honey has no fiber and it would whack out my blood sugar something chronic. again, i thought it was the fruit, but when i gave up honey, stable blood sugar again.
honey is full of toxic pollen from toxic flowers. its full of digestive enzymes from the bee's digestive system and these enzymes are very acid forming to the human body. i got that from dr gabriel cousins.

honey works for glycogen replenishment for sure, but sweet fruits work better. better for us and better for our pollenator friends that produce most of the food that we eat today.

CCD aka colony collapse disorder is happening worldwide. bee's are dying and there is 'no reason' for it. its a mystery the researchers say..mmmm i wonder what is happening..bee's get fed sugar water...compromised immune systems....genetic mutations....failure to thrive syndrome.... :)

everyone loves sweet. EVERYONE!! sweet fruit is mothers natures creation and if we eat enough, sweet fruit ensures satiation!! :)

Lastly, here is some facts about honey that dont make it that sweet for your health..

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evidently you aren't aware of how a bee functions within its community. if you did, you'd realize why a bee doesn't just take off and leave. nor do bees make an excess so you can take it - they have another reason. i'll cover this in a later post, so keep watching.

you also don't realize just how much closer bees are to humans either - each are at the top of their evolutionary line. while in a taxonomy sense, cows are closer to humans than bees, in an evolutionary sense it's a different matter. again, there'll be more on this later.

your man is the measure of everything idea is what causes most of the problems on earth, angus. the human supremacy notion is a difficult one for some people to get over, but since you are all into vibrating and nature already, you shouldn't have such a hard time.

planting fruit trees for bees isn't symbiosis angus. they'd do just fine if you didn't plant a single one.

it is unfortunate that you don't recognize what stealing is. living in symbiosis is different from stealing. if you stole $100 from me, i wouldn't punch you in the face, but i would take you to court or give you a very long lecture which would be worse really :D

however, if you needed the money for something that is not abusive to other creatures, say a campaign against the honey industry, then i would likely give it to you. that is an example of symbiosis.

however, even if i had a billion dollars, i wouldn't share a penny with you to live the lifestyle you want to live, because it is not vegan and it is abusive to other creatures. you're better off trying to steal that $100 and getting the lecture. :D

the bees have a lifestyle they want to live and by taking their honey you are messing it up.

in friendship,

there is evidence that honey is a bad food more than one poster here has provided it. if you want, i'll do so again.

i have offered to tell you about cheese and eggs. you haven't taken me up on that offer. instead you spin these yarns about not eating them in excess or getting high quality. so i'll wait.

when you are finished telling your stories and want to see the actual evidence about eggs and cheese, just let me know and i'll show you. there's far more here than a snotty nose, angus.

you accused me of some sort of duality earlier on, but what i find surprising is that you seem to be in favor of being veg, yet you spout all this stuff about animal products. if you think humans in the far distant future will be vegan, what are you waiting for? :D

in friendship,

I'm curious, what is it about eating dairy and eggs that is healthy in small amounts? What is it about grains and cereals that you believe to be healthy?

If you eat a diet predominating in plant based raw foods, then obviously this is going to be much healthier than what people are generally doing, but that doesnt mean that animal products or grain foods are healthy in anyway, for my mind. Unless you can think of something specific to persuade me to the contrary. I'm all out of ideas.


Take care

Adam x

taking things by force from another creature is not symbiosis.
you take the honey by force from the bees and planting a bunch of fruit trees doesn't make it any more symbiotic except in your imagination.

when you are finished watching silly shows like dr dolittle, we can talk about some of this if you want to.

in friendship,
I'm confused Angus, isnt that precisely what you are claiming to do? To interpret your relationship with bees and beekeeping by projecting your beliefs about the symbiosis of the relationship onto the bees, presuming that they are not bothered by it. Or that they do not think it disruptive in some way.

Take care

Adam x
why honey is not vegan

this is an excellent article by the above title written by noah lewis who is a talented author amongst other things. it counters a lot of the nonsense honey advocates spout about bees and their relationships to bees and the bees' relationships to nature and all that fluff with which they try to make the enslavement, exploitation, abuse and murder of bees more palatable. noah doesn't spout - he researches and presents the information clearly and with an entertaining twist of humor.

here is the link:

now i know you can go to the site and read all about it. however, i have this feeling that those who most need to go there won't (for various reasons), so i'm providing a short trip through the site as a convenience. you can use this as a guide if you wish or just go to the real thing right away.

coming up after this post will be a presentation regarding the sentience of bees which was inspired by the exchange i've been having with mario earlier on in this thread. it utilizes angus' contribution "man is the measure of everything" in a rather appropriate way as you'll see.

now on to why honey is not vegan!

in friendship,

noah starts his explanation of why honey is not vegan with 2 primary reasons:

a) definition: donald watson and the vegan society in 1944 specifically left honey off
b) the spirit of veganism which forbids exploitation of animals

he goes on to answer "are bees smart?" with:

a) questioning the pheromone and instinct convenience some people like to use
b) wondering about the possibility of a bee imagination
b) providing evidence of bee intelligence through the gould lake experiment
(more on the latter two in my forth-coming sentience post)

intelligence is not a criteria for receiving compassionate treatment, so noah next deals with the issue of pain providing evidence like

a) bees' large nervous system
b) two studies which indicate that bees do feel pain

then he moves on to the idea of enslavement explaining topics like:

a) artificial insemination of the queen
b) killing of the queen after a year even though they live for 5 to exert control over the hive
c) smoking the bees
d) the mouseguard
e) the loss of upto 20% of the hive due to carelessness and intention
f) the economic sense of killing off entire hives
g) explanation of why bees don't just pack up and leave because they are unhappy as some people seem to think they would do

well if you are going go to the trouble of having slaves, you might as well steal from them too. so noah deals with things like:

a) why bees make extra honey and how much bee exploiters actually take
b) what the replacement product is - after all you want your slaves to keep working right?
c) the history of beekeeping which reveals this nonsensical claim some bee exploiters spout of doing things the 'traditional' way
d) blowing apart the ridiculous notion bee exploiters give about helping bees reach their full potential (ie make more honey and profits)

then noah takes us into hive products because it is more than honey that bee exploiters steal:

a) venom
b) pollen
c) royal jelly
d) beeswax
e) propolis
f) bee brood (undeveloped bees that some people like to eat - his link doesn't work so you can find info here)

next noah takes apart some of the long standing myths that bee exploiters like to propagate:

a) the bees are good for the environment - well they're not. they wipe out natural pollinators and carry other 'threats'. they hold farmers 'hostage' as well. you can read about it here under "Honeybees Shouldn't Pollinate" and "Honeybees Hurt the Environment"
b) the we'd starve without honeybees. i asked this as a question to john mccabe, but never got an answer. so i'll let noah answer it with some help from the carl hayden bee research center: Commercial honey production and commercial pollination are not the same ... "Beekeepers may brag about the importance of honeybees in the necessary transfer of pollen, but many are not involved in the practical aspects of the service," according to Justin Schmidt and Stephen Buchmann. bees pollinate only about 15% of things (not 80% as the untruth goes) so folks you need not worry about your fruit.
c) the "don't you kill other bugs" routine that has already been danced at length in this thread, but you can see some other responses here
d) the honey is good for you - well it ain't so. noah uses statements from the national honey board themselves who acknowledge things like "The nutrients supplied by honey and other sweeteners are too low to be considered as practical sources of these nutrients". he points out that stuff like honey reducing allergies, pollen being a wonder food, royal jelly's merits are just wishwash anecdotes. finally, he shows that honey isn't even so hot as a 'natural' sweetner. (unfortunately, some of the links he provides needs updating and i understand that this will happen sometime this year because he has had funds donated to continue his work)

finally, he deals with the issue of his viewpoint being biased. it's a good read:

i suppose crying biased is one of the last resorts of oppressors: when you tell the truth, you are biased. :D :D

that's just what we are here on 30bad - we're definitely biased because the homework has been done here regarding lfrv and we've gotten past the lies.
the measure of a bee

But he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, and we haven't addressed the third. So we might find him meeting your third criterion, and then what is he?

some you may recognize the above line from one of the best star trek next generation episodes ever, the measure of a man, where picard fights for data's right to exist. it is a particularly powerful one which addresses the root of human evil headon - the notion of supremacy which allows oppression of other species and even other humans.

some humans take the "made in the image of god" the wrong way - they leave out the image part and think they are indeed god. they go for the power ignoring the divine qualities. they become oppressors of other beings ignoring the latters' torment. they create arbitrary values for their own convenience which allow them to excuse any hideous action.

this post addresses the issue of sentience of bees, because sometimes if sentience is acknowledged the victims may get respite. the approach is different here in that i will string together ideas quoting from various references rather than write an essay. all quoted material is in italics. it is in 2 parts due to the length.

let's start with the Lauritz Sømme report to the norwegian scientific committee for food safety:
This report briefly describes the sensory and neural systems of the following invertebrate groups: Mollusca, Echinodermata, Annelida, Insecta, Arachnida, and Crustacea. In addition, cognitive abilities and the neurobiological potential for pain and suffering are presented to the extent this is known from scientific literature.

this is interesting because most people wander around thinking invertebrates are mindless automatons. on the other hand, it is perhaps not that surprising because some people have thought the same about other humans (eg black slaves were thought of that way).

Invertebrates are well equipped with sense organs, which supply information about their surroundings. Like vertebrates, invertebrates respond to noxious stimuli by withdrawal in order to reduce the likelihood of damage. The response can be fast reflexes or more graded neural responses.

despite these facts Humans often treat invertebrates as if they are without feeling. these unfortunates include Echinodermata, Annelida, Molluscs, Crustaceans, Spiders and Insects.

The general tendency for encephalization in higher invertebrates is largely related to the concentration of sense organs at the front of bilaterally symmetrical animals. This is well illustrated in insects. As in other animals the nervous system of insects consists of nerve cells and glia cells ... The brain is derived from ganglia of three segments, and forms the major association center of the nervous system (Gillott 1995).

this equipment connects to the sensors:

Insects possess a wide variety of sense organs that are important to monitor and respond to changes in their environment (Gillott 1995, Gullan & Cranston 2005). For example, insects use their senses to find a partner or a source for food, and to register changes in microclimate. To control flight, aerial flows must be sensed and result in appropriate responses ... Chemoreceptors are of particular importance for feeding, oviposition and mate location ... Compound eyes are particularly suited to register moving objects ... The success on insects as a numerous and highly diversified group of animals is partly due to their effective sense organs.

sensing and processing are nice, but what can you do with these:

It must be pointed out that insects are borne with complex behaviour that cannot be learned. They are genetically programmed to stereotype reaction to different stimuli.

aren't we all! and furthermore,

there are numerous examples on how innate behaviour can be modified by learning. Insects may respond to habituation and learn from trial-and-error tests. By associative learning they are able to relate two or more environmental stimuli (Gillott 1995). Memory, which is the ability to store information from the sense organs, has also been widely studied in insects.

a few examples for now:

Examples of learning in insects include the digger wasp Philanthus, which makes an orientation flight in order to remember the vicinity of its nest. Butterflies can learn to find flowers with higher contents of nectar. Grasshoppers learn to avoid harmful plants, and parasitoids learn to locate the habitat of their hosts. Learning has in particular been studied in honeybees (Gould 1993). They can learn to locate food sources by odor and colour. By training they can alter their foraging behaviour, and also learn to recognize shapes and patterns. The memory of honeybees is very persistent. After three visits to a source of sugar, a foraging bee will remember the place forever.

now one way to test pain is to cause it and watch:

Invertebrates, like vertebrates, have the capacity to detect and respond to noxious or averse stimuli. This capability of animals to detect and react to stimuli that may compromise their integrity is termed nociception (Kavaliers 1988, Smith 1991). The ability to avoid dangers is a fundamental adaptation in all animals, without which they would not be able to survive ... Reflective mechanisms are known from a number of invertebrates. Reflexes allow the animal to escape or withdraw rapidly from dangerous conditions. Series of reflexes may result in more complex behaviour. Graded muscle contractions and coordination of different muscles are based on more complex nervous responses ... Reflex mechanisms are well known from insects (Gullan & Cranston 2005).... Although the behaviour of insects is complex, it is mainly composed of reflexes (Gullan & Cranston 2005). In some species, however, their behaviour may be modified by environmental conditions and by learning. The stereotype reactions of insects to appropriate stimuli are genetically programmed (Eisemann et al. 1984). In this way their behaviour pattern appear to rely on relatively rigid programmed avoidance and escape responses, triggered by stimuli like heat, chemicals and mechanical touch or restraint.

now it tends to surprise people when they see that insects can actually learn. however, it shouldn't. in japan, some people find grasshoppers make good pets. a friend of mine, rescued a butterfly which used to follow her around from room to room. my son and i did an experiment with wasps which showed that they know the difference between the two of us. he feeds them apples so they came to him regularly - even when i brought the apples out and he had none.

cognition in honeybees has been examined a fair bit:

Different levels of cognition are found in insects, but most closely studied in honeybees (Apis mellifera). The cognitive abilities of bees include the reception of stimuli from the environment and attention to a selective part of the stimuli (Dukas & Real 1993). The information is transferred to the brain for processing, storing and interpretation. Honeybees are able to form cognitive maps, which allow them to locate their position in the landscape. Information stored in the brain of a bee is used to change its behaviour in response to past experience. Honeybees are also able to communicate through behaviour, like in their “dances”, and through odor. In this way they may change the behaviour of other individuals. It appears that honeybees exhibit a relatively high level of cognition, but it is not known if their cognitive abilities also include consciousness.

In addition to bees, it is reasonable to assume that similar levels of cognition may be present in other social insects, and perhaps in more advanced solitary species. With their relatively complicated nervous system and behaviour it cannot be excluded that more advanced insects have some awareness of their existence.

now pay particular attention to that last sentence, because for some poohbahs (like maddox in the star trek episode) that awareness of one's existence is a necessary condition for sentience.

the issue of pain and suffering gets murky. it cannot be denied that bees have senses and cognition and even self-awareness. however, pain and suffering become a problem because some people don't seem to understand the feelings of another being unless it a near duplicate of their own. as nollman writes in this interesting account of experiences with yellowjackets which everyone wanted to pass off as pheromone response:

Here we are faced with an example of the Bambi Syndrome: scientists can not accept the reality of animal language or animal consciousness until an animal possessed of certain key attributes of both human language and human consciousness appears on the scene.

so while it is sometimes grudgingly granted that pain is experienced, it seems you have to do more research to determine whether the pain is actually suffering. so continuing with the norwegian report:

On the question of pain in insects, Eisener et al. (1984) pointed out that it is not possible to give a conclusive answer since the subjective experienced of an organisms cannot be registered. Still, from considerations of the insect nervous systems and their behaviour there does not appear to be any support to the occurrence of pain. Several examples are known in which insects continue with normal activities even after severe injury (Eisener et al. 1984, Smith 1991). An insect walking with a crushed foot will apply it to the substrate with undiminished force. Locusts [vandregresshopper] have been seen to continue feeding whilst being eaten themselves by preying mantis [kneler], and aphids continue to feed when eaten by coccinelid beetles [marihøner]. A male mantis continues to mate although eaten by his partner, and a tsetse fly will try to suck blood although half dissected during an experiment. Many adult insects and larvae continue to develop whilst being eaten by large internal parasitoids. It appears that there is no evidence of conscious experience in insects, since natural selection of a capacity for pain would also result in corresponding capacity for adaptive responses.

Furthermore, it is argued that although some insect behaviour, such as the convulsions of insects poisoned by DDT, the struggling of restrained insects, repellent secretion and alarm pheromones, resembles that of higher animals responding to pain, no more requires the presence of pain sense than reflexive withdrawal.

In spite of these strong arguments against pain in insects, more research is wanted. Some authors think that it is presumptuous for us to assume that because our human suffering involves self-awareness, this should also be true in other species. Wigglesworth (1980) recommended that insects for experimental purposes have their nervous system inactivated prior to traumatizing manipulation.

now 2 revealing experiments with honeybees provided some pretty strong hints. as noah lewis says:

If common sense isn't good enough, we can always resort to scientific studies that indicate that bees feel pain.

balderrama concluded that bees have a pain killing system, which can be enhanced with morphine or blocked by naloxone and nunez that isopentyl acetate releases natural pain killers ... so that the defender bees will continue to attack even if they are injured

continued here
measure of a bee continued

to deal with the suffering, one needs to wander over into the philosophy department to create a complex model of 'beeness'. so we'll look at peter carruthers' Invertebrate Minds: A Challenge for Ethical Theory

here is built a model of mind from observations to determine if the honeybee is deserving of "sympathy" from us. (don't blame me, that's how some philosophers work).

a basic package is assumed:

in order to count as possessing a belief-desire psychology there needs to be a real distinction between belief states and desire states (and between each of these and perceptual states). Moreover, these states must not only possess intentional contents but must, in addition, be both discrete, and structured in ways that reflect those contents. In addition, their detailed causal roles (the ways in which particular belief states and particular desire states interact in the construction of simple plans) must be sensitive to those structural features. This is the basic package of kinds of state and ability that is necessary for a creature to count as possessing a mind, in the sense that matters for the appropriateness of sympathy and concern.

to demonstrate this belief-desire architecture exists bee navigation is studied:

In the present section I shall argue that at least some invertebrates (specifically honey bees and jumping spiders) possess a belief-desire-planning cognitive architecture much like our own, as revealed by their sophisticated navigation abilities.

this included mechanisms used by bees regularly such as dead reckoning, learn expected position, recognize landmarks, construction of mental maps.
for instance:

Gould reports, for example, that when trained to a particular food source and then carried from the hive in a dark box to a new release point, the bees will fly directly to the food, but only if there is a significant landmark in their vicinity when they are released ... Menzel et al. found that bees that had never foraged more than a few meters from the nest, but who were released at random points much further from it, were able to return home swiftly ... More recently, Menzel et al. have provided strong evidence of the map-like organization of spatial memory in honey bees through the use of harmonic radar

the well-known honey bee dance is also brought in:

honey bees dance to communicate information of various sorts to other bees. The main elements of the code have now been uncovered through patient investigation

furthermore, bees show considerable discrimination as demonstrated by the gould et al lake experiment:

Bees don’t just accept and act on any information that they are offered, either. On the contrary, they evaluate it along a number of dimensions. They check the nature and quality of the goal being offered (normally by sampling it, in the case of food). And they factor in the distance to the indicated site before deciding whether or not to fly out to it. Most strikingly, indeed, it has been suggested that bees might also integrate communicated information with the representations on their mental map, rejecting even rich sources of food that are being indicated to exist in the middle of a lake-

these behaviors are not associative or conditioned responses. nor is it plausible for them to be due to a subsumption architecture where there are mini belief-desire mechanisms for each situation. the conclusion is that:

honey bees have a suite of information-generating systems that construct representations of the relative directions and distances between a variety of substances and properties and the hive, as well as a number of goal-generating systems taking as inputs body states and a variety of kinds of contextual information, and generating a current goal as output. These goal states can then interact with the information states within some sort of practical reasoning system to create a potentially unique behavior, never before seen in the life of that particular bee. It would appear, therefore, that bees possess a belief-desire cognitive architecture.

though the author deals with advanced planning via jumping spiders, it is obvious that bees possess a highly developed mechanism too, based on their ability to prepare for their future.

after all this, the work puzzlingly seems to deteriorate into acknowledging behaviors confirming the possibility for bee suffering, but not granting it.

for instance:

Most of us believe, in fact, that insects and spiders make no direct claims on our sympathy or moral concern. We think that we are under no obligation, when walking down the street, to avoid stepping on any ants. ... It seems very likely that most ordinary folk don’t really believe that invertebrates have minds at all. Do most people then think that insects and spiders make no moral claims on us because (and only because) they believe that invertebrates don’t have minds?

which is weird since he's gone to quite some trouble to show that bees do have minds and:

were ordinary folk to became convinced that invertebrates are appropriate objects of sympathy, then they should accept that they are required to be concerned whenever the interests of ants, bees, and spiders are threatened

now we can't have that can we!

Those who accept some form of utilitarian theoretical framework, in which the basic moral currency consists of frustrations and satisfactions of desires and preferences, will find it difficult to resist the conclusion that sympathy is owed to at least some invertebrates, just as it is owed to other human beings.

this could become inconvenient so:

For it is a fixed point for me that invertebrates make no direct claims on us, despite possessing minds in the sense that makes sympathy and moral concern possible. Invertebrates believe things, want things, and make simple plans, and they are capable of having their plans thwarted and their desires frustrated. But it isn’t wrong to take no account of their suffering. Indeed, I would regard the contrary belief as a serious moral perversion. And I suspect that most ordinary folk will agree.

no doubt they would!

The challenge for ethical theory, then, is to reconcile and explain the following set of beliefs: (1) When people suffer, the basic ground for our sympathy and moral concern lies in their states of frustrated desire. (2) Invertebrates share with us a form of belief-desire psychology, and are capable of having their desires frustrated. (3) The sufferings of invertebrates make no direct moral claims on us. The challenge is further compounded (indeed, I would claim that it is rendered intractable) if we also believe: (4) The sufferings of some ‘higher’ animals (paradigmatically dogs, cats, horses, and primates) do make direct moral claims on us.

I have argued herein that both (1) and (2) are well established. One response to our challenge might be to drop (3), embracing one element of the Jainist moral outlook. But that, I claim, would be morally absurd. My own response is to drop (4), or to offer a highly attenuated version of it.

sure cut out the dogs, cats and horses too why not!

it is wonderous how setting arbitrary values can allow one to bury one's head in the sand, avoiding anything inconvenient with labels like "absurd" or "ridiculous".

in any case, despite this peculiar conclusion, it is clear that honey bees are deserving of our 'sympathy' by virtue of their possession of a belief-desire mental architecture which when violated does cause suffering of various forms.

now the human supremacy idiocy doesn't care about scientific evidence or philosophical arguments because it sets arbitrary values to provide its own conveniences. everything is fair game whether they are bees or cows or humans or androids.

in fact, here's how picard concluded his case:

Your honor, a courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away the egos, the selfish desires, the half-truths, until we're left with the pure product -- a truth -- for all time. Sooner or later it's going to happen. This man or others like him are going to succeed in replicating Data. And then we have to decide -- what are they? And how will we treat these creations of our genius? The decision you reach here today stretches far beyond this android and this courtroom. It will reveal the kind of a people we are. And what (points to Data) ... they are going to be. Do you condemn them to slavery? Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. (indicating Data) Well, there he sits, your honor, waiting on our decision. You have a chance to make law. Well, let's make a good one.

so how will we treat these creations of god?
our decision will reveal the kind of people we are!

in friendship,
ok so someone's bound to argue about the tooth decay explaining that winnie the pooh ate lots of honey! however, these people get very upset when you point out that winnie the pooh didn't really have teeth.

fine they grudgingly admit, but what about this scientific study by molan et al:
Dr. Molan [University of Waikato , New Zealand] has shown that honey not only stops the growth of thedental plaque bacteria, it reduces the amount of acid produced, which stops the bacteria from producing dextran.

well i'm sure they do great research in their labs so that certain parties keep paying them to produce the desired results:
The Honey Research Unit (HRU) was established to promote research into the antimicrobial properties, composition and identification of honeys. It also serves as a source of expert knowledge on the composition and properties of honey, providing information and advice to marketers of honey and products containing honey, and information for the public on use of honey as a therapeutic agent. The Unit is funded by the New Zealand honey industry and by various research grants.

if you have the funding, you can make black turn into white - even your teeth!

in friendship,
this information is brilliant P! Thanks for going to all the trouble to spread the truth.

if you have the funding, you can make black turn into white - even your teeth!
- Gosh its so sad but true.
i put the tooth thing up because of what you wrote about it on the other thread reminded me that i hadn't quite finished up on this one.

i think the difficulty some people have with lfrv is that they don't understand that
1) lf means you don't eat low fat
2) r means that you eat raw
3) v means that you eat veg

if you pack in a bottle of olive oil you aren't low fat
if you dig into those french fries you aren't raw
if you go for that smackerel of something sweet from your honey jar, you aren't veg
(yes folks winnie the pooh really isn't veg as shattering as this must be to some)

so why would anyone doing such stuff think they are lfrv?
and how come we find out about these things after they complain that lfrv isn't working for them?

(it's actually not dissimilar to what happens in the sentience write-up above where the guy shows that bees deserve our consideration, but then denies them it. as bigG would say, some people have really been munching on their doritos and burgers :D )

in friendship,



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