30 Bananas a Day!

So it's very interesting to see Freelea and Durianrider doing the rawtill4 thing now. I know they have both been raw for many years and have reaped massive health benefits from that which is great.

Personally I love the concept of Raw till 4 and it works very well for me. But I was wondering as I've seen in previous posts from durianrider that when someone would mention rice he would say something along the lines of 'bird food, why eat it if you can't have it raw' (I'm paraphrasing) and even worse for wheat.

So I guess I would like peoples opinions of consuming (obviously cooked) wheat and rice and the physiological compatibility it has with the human body.


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That book is great and provides science regarding what grains and starches do to the body and the environment too.  It takes massive amounts of energy to grow grains, mill, refine, store, transport, etc.  While feeding of grains to humans instead of animals can put on temporary plug on global hunger and some forms of malnutrition, it is that, only a plug.  

For our huge global and growing population to stay healthy, we may need to turn to other sources:-D

For people looking for optimum athletic performance, and Dr. Graham has coached world class athletes including those on Olympic level and a tennis star, the book

Nutrition and Athletic Performance is good too, with chapter nine explaining how starches can hold an athlete back from a physiological point of view.  Its all science.   


Now I know with the raw food wars going on, some people are not pro Dr. Graham, but there are other books too, and research going back to the early 1800s that can be found on the web.  

Another great book is called Wheat Belly.  The author does promote eating meat, but he too is a cardiologist, and had great success in helping patients improve health by removing wheat, gluten, and other starchy foods.  

He gives real life examples and lots of science and studies to back up his claims.  


Before Mcdougall, those of us older folks remember Pritikin in the 1970-1980s time frame.  His diet was almost identical to Mcdougall.  I believe he ended up committing suicide, so much for starches and grains promoting brain health.  

But, one of Pritikins followers Ross Horne realized that Pritikin could have done better.  

Sure his starch and grain based diet helped some people with cardiovascular markers short term, but long term, they were still getting sick with problems like arthritis.  

Horne did his own independent scientific research, and came to a conclusion that a low fat raw fruit diet was where it was at with ratios similar to what we teach here ie 80 10 10 (811 existed before Graham coined the term)

These are free Horne works:



CHAPTER 15 Dieting for Health and Longevity


Of particular interest is chapter 10 "Grains Are for the Birds."

And of course, my own research is in its infancy, but here are some blogs I have written too that others who might be reading here may have not read yet:

What starchy foods are:

I had to define this because in some cultures wheat and grains for example are not called starchy foods as in the medical and nutritional sense:

Carbohydrates and Starchy Foods

Starchy Foods vs Fruit n Lettuce

Diet and Health in Japan and USA


Hope this helps anyone interested in learning more about what starches can do or not do in the body from a physiological perspective.  

And on another note, as far as wheat products go, they contain gluten.  Many individuals are sensitive to gluten and or have underlying Celiac disease.  There is a lot of free information on the web regarding gluten and wheat.  

Peace, PK

maybe his brain was in gpod shape by taking his own life  because he was in hospital being "treated" for cancer     

i think its a reasonable idea to end life rather then to continue with drug treatment esp those days i think cancer patients suffered horribly .   I respect his decision 

@Gábor Supka 

My  point is that people of different walks of life are coming to similar conclusions regarding the consumption of grain and gluten products.  

I already disclaimered in so many words that the author does promote eating meat.  But that is not really what the book is about, eating meat.  

If we stay on the topic of wheat, per the OPs discussion and question, then this book, Wheat Belly addresses these issues of problems with grains and gluten along with an insight into how our bodies react to starchy foods and chronic hyperinsulism.  

Even if one finds fault with some of the information in the book regarding grains, there are other authors and research out there that come to similar conclusions.  

And anyone grain and starch sensitive such as myself can give real life examples too.  

I mentioned several references above from both vegan, meat eating, and my own research that point us in a direction that something might be wrong with grains.  

This book is a tool to be used in a toolbox of many tools, but not necessarily the only tool we can use.   

I do disclaimer that the Wheat Belly Author takes grains away from diet and promotes meat, fruits, and vegetables.  

However, Dr. Graham does a similar thing and promotes eating raw fruits n shoots.  

Ross Horne taught the dangers of grains back in the 1980s based on older research and came to similar conclusions as Graham, and gave us a raw fruit solution.  

30BaD and RT4 discourage the use of gluten products and grains, and give people solutions of eating a diet high in raw fruits n shoots n nuts n seeds, and for people eating cooked, steamed vegetables like broccoli and potatoes and corn pasta.  

There is research going against the grain that goes back to around 1850 or before.  

There are others ways to beat the grain too via studies and results of people who are oxalate sensitive and have to eat a low oxalate diet, to people who need to keep calcium phosphorus ratios high, to people who get constipated eating grains and starchy foods, to studies linking grain and gluten consumption to autism and other brain disorders including Alzheimers, to b12 and iron deficiency anemia.  


Here is some interesting research regarding wheat and gluten products:


I understand that not everyone will get sick or have side effects from eating wheat and gluten products.  

However, there is the long term risk that high consumption will lead to medical conditions.  Just because humans have been doing something for thousands of years does not make it right or healthy.  We have been eating animal products for thousands of years, and are only now discovering the health problems associated with these diets and or diets high in protein and fat.  

The study of grains, wheat, and gluten is in its infancy, but chances are, we are probably going to come to a conclusion in the future that they are suboptimal foods for humans.  

Our primate cousins eat almost 0 grains.  Early humans ate almost none.  Grains are typically more the food of birds or possibly some herbivores or ruminants.  

There is a concept in nutrition called the 20 year rule.  Some things can kill instantly like drinking ocean water.  Some problems do not show up until years later after consumption has started, and second and third generations may have even more difficulties.  

Peace, PK


Fat not grain  according to this video causes brain trouble  

WTF is wheat belly suggesting meat ?

Nathan Priikin reversed his heart disease as his arteries were smooth at his death after have heart disease in his 40's   if its good for heart disease prevention  why would be harmful for other stuff ?   

@banana - boy

As you mentioned above Pritikin did have cancer which was leukemia if I am not mistaken.  

I am not sure if the suicide was related to cancer pains as leukemia is often a painless disease some people do not know they have until they visit a doctor for something else,  a wish for euthanasia, or some psycho disorder brought on by his grain based diet.  It may have even been humiliation or questioning of why his diet, which did improve so much, could not help him with his cancer.  

Grains and gluten products can bring on psychiatric problems of and on their own, so who knows what caused what.  

He did improve his cardiovascular issues, probably by removal of offensive foods like animal products and high fat products.  I am not sure what his protein consumption was because he did eat veg products high in protein too.  

It was not necessarily the grains in and of themselves that improved his condition.  

In some people, grains and gluten products actually stiffen arteries causing cardiovascular problems to show up long term rather than short term like animal products do.  

There is evidence now that grains and gluten, especially in those with Celiac disease, can cause cancer and or leukemia.  

That is why Ross Horne, who was once the right hand man of Pritikin, went on to do his own research and realized that while Pritikins diet did help many achieve better cardiovascular health, long term, it did not prevent problems like arthritis, immune disorders, digestive disorders like Crohs and IBS, and cancers.  

Ross Horne came to the same conclusions that Dr. Graham did that grains are for the birds and not an ideal food for humans and that fruit n shoots are where its at.  

I think I mentioned on another reply here about the world of nutrition having a 20 year rule.  For example, the first time someone eats an egg or a steak, they probably are not going to keal over and die of a heart attack.  But eat the egg and steak every day for 20 years and problems are bound to happen.  

The study of problems regarding the consumption of grains and other complex carbohydrates and starchy foods is still in its infancy, but pub med has references to over 9,000 studies and papers showing the problems with some of these foods.  

I think the research is starting to talk for itself.  

As you once said yourself I think, everyone is captain of their own ship, and free to choose what they eat.  

I am here to volunteering to show the pros and cons of what we eat, and I hope have given the OP some food for thought.

Peace, PK


 nathan pritikin cancer was in remission for 27 years he got it through radiation before he began to change his diet for heart diseae    i thought you studied him and would know this ?    

I agree we all all captains !  I think its good to present info and debate : ) pros and cons  both  :  )    i am not a fixture  am open to change when i see my errors   

According to Wikipedia, he ultimately took his own life rather than endure the horrible last days of his cancer.

@ B-Boy, 

Brain Trouble

In the world of nutrition, there are different factors that cause different issues, and or sometimes the same issues.  

For example, the China Study might concur with the video you shared above that high fat, high protein, high animal product, and high dairy products cause all kinds of degenerative diseases.  

However, the China Study also shows that eating a diet high in plant proteins such as soy protein for example, does not eliminate risk, it might lower a few percentage points, but not eliminate.  

When it comes to some cardiovascular issues and or some brain issues, it sometimes comes down to protein, and not just protein, but specific amino acids. Take methionine for example.  Sure, we need some in the diet, and can get some from the small amount of nuts and seeds we eat, and many plants have it in small amounts.  But in large amounts, it can start promoting inflammation, high homocysteine levels, and cardiovascular and brain problems.  

You can do a net search to learn more about the methionine homocysteine pathway, and or how eating in excess causes harm to the body.  

I love Dr. Gregers videos.  Always sharp and to the point, and I like his use of science.  

However, while he is showing that Alheimers risks are reduced in some populations, the percentage points are not that great.  

And in people with genetic Celiac, research has shown that gluten and grains can exponentiate their problems.  


Yes, the Wheat Belly author eats meat, but the Wheat Belly book is not a diet book in and of itself, rather it takes a look at the history of wheat products, problems with a high gluten diet, Celiac disease, and how starchy foods can cause problems in some people.  

I concur with most the wheat science in this book as it matches what other researchers have found around the world, and do not want to discuss the authors personal habits.  

Even in slim people, or people on low fat diets, sensitive individuals with Celiac disease, Crohns disease, IBS, type 1 diabetes, and or healing from type two, or damaged bodies and underlying metabolic issues, may have to be careful about their gluten and grain intake, and starchy food intake.  

For people who may have started out healthy, may be they have some arthritis starting somewhere in their body, I would hope they do not assume that it is just an old age thing.  

Often if we are not born with a disease or condition, it might be brought on by diet.  

Back to Wheat Belly, as I mentioned in another reply, I offered a plethora of sources that cite research going against the grain.  Some vegans and vegetarians have come to these conclusions, yes, but I also want to point out that people from different walks of life are coming to similar conclusions.  



We do not have a lot of science and studies that target vegans and vegetarians only.  Most researchers themselves eat Standard diets and or animal products, and the subjects they study eat animal products.  

While I dont promote eating animal products, these studies such as the China Study are great in showing people who do eat them what the end result of their actions will be.  

If we throw out all science out that involved researchers and subjects who ate animal products, we are not left with much to support our message, and thanks to some of these studies, some people like myself are making healthier choices and or have turned to Animal rights.  

I dont think we will ever know for sure what happened behind Nathans Pritikins closed doors and or his mindset.  I can only speculate.  

I respect his work, and like many Mcdougall followers, I know many people improved some medical conditions based on his teachings.  

But like Ross Horne, I often ask myself, can we do better? Is that enough?  

And, while I understand we are human and not monkeys, we share 98-99% of dna with many primates.  

Did our raw frugivorous monkey's uncle and cousins get it wrong?  

In the old days, there were some people following the what would Jesus Do movement.  

I like to say what would Primates do?

Peace, PK

@ Gábor Supka 

There are some individuals here who are not on Dr. Doug Grahams page either.  

I personally really do not like to discuss individuals rather focus on the science.  

There are some gurus and doctors who have made big mistakes and some individual researchers who may know more or have things figured out better than some doctors.  

No human being, author, or study is perfect.  We are all capable of misinterpreting data, or if we are in charge of a study or interpreting a studies results, adding our own biases.  

Therefore, I like to bring science from a plethora of different sources, and focus on science only, not the individual.  

Peace, PK

I was listening to a doctor that stated that around 90-95 of all people are effected by eating gluten but most have no side effects.  One long term side effect is the increase of the changes of getting brain diseases like alzheimers, or dementia.  Also inflammation of your intestines and joints are common aliments.   I have eliminated gluten from my diet for over 2 years now and my health which was never bad per se is now superior.  I also eliminated dairy well before I became a vegetarian/vegan.  I have not been sick in any form and the minor allergies that i had are completely gone.  

I am curious to know - now that it is OK for Harley to change to his raw until 4 plan - has he made public apologies to anyone that he defamed over the years for daring to admit that they were eating something cooked ?????? The example that comes to mind was Jinjee Talifero - she took the brave step to say that she was having a break from her 100 % routine to try eating a sweet potato ...... Harley made a video "why did she FAIL FAIL FAIL at the raw food diet" ..... it was pretty disgraceful ....... so in hindsight is Harley going back through his old videos and trying to apologise to all offended ??????

Harley has always talked about eating cooked carbs if you can't get enough fruit, what's the big deal about raw til 4?  Hard to imagine he would dog someone just for eating a cooked sweet potato.  Perhaps the video on Jinjee was on why under eating and eating too much fat is harmful, (if you want to stay raw, these are good ways to fall off the wagon).  Do you have a link to the video?   Or maybe you could find another video example where he defamed someone for eating cooked.  I am not aware of any myself.



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