30 Bananas a Day!

strange crazy disturbing dreams and provocative questions about veganism and stuff

Hello, everyone! Please take a time to answer this since it's extremely important to me. This is my first post, so I'm really sorry if it's much too long, so if you wanna go straight to the point please fell free to read only the highlighted parts. I'll be presently moving parts of it to a blog post.

I've been an ethical vegan for the last 3 years by now - and absolutely no intention of going back! The only (possible) exceptions to the rule were when I ate something without knowing the exact ingredients of it [perhaps bcs I was very hungry at the time; I've always been in the habit of checking all ingredients of what I ate as much as possible though; I can remember once when I was in Germany (where I took my profile picture!) I was very hungry so stoped in a museum cafeteria and ate a potato soup that I'm not sure if it had milk on it (or even worse; God, I hope not...); anyways I felt a bit strange after eating it but prefered not to ask]; the closest I got to breaking up with veganism recently was a day (I was in the Netherlands then) when my mother bought me a tomato soup in a chinese (or japanese, I duno) restaurant that had chicken on it (ugh...she probably didn't know it so please forgive her); I had literaly been day-dreaming of tomatos all day long and regreting I didn't buy any when I could  (I was at that moment in a house very far away from the nearest supermarket (well, to say the truth I didn't really ask where it was but at least that's pretty much the impression I got)), so I opened the glass (yeah, it came in a plastic glass...) and saw some weird things that I didn't know what they were (I mean it looked like chicken, but could also have been some kind of imitation; tofu, perhaps? unlikely for a non-vegan restaurant I think, but still who knows), so after a while I took a spoonful of it and aproached my tongue so I could better fell the texture of it, but imediately refused to eat it; it just looked too much like the real thing to me.

The weird thing is I had had a nightmare a little less than a month before, that was more or less like this: my mother kept offering me things that I don't eat and asking in a sweet voice: 'you will eat this, will you?' and I obediently answered: 'yes I will'; I was sitting on a table with some other people and my mother would keep giving me the rests of other peoples plates I and would eat it all! the dream culminated with me eating chicken leftovers from other peoples plates (yeah, disgusting...). The subsequent days were like a come true of that dream: I started eating more and more cooked food, increasingly spicy and salty; until one day I felt so bad and couldn't sleep and decided to go back to LFRV; I did it for a few days and felt like heaven, better than ever before, but then my mother prepared some (frozen and cooked) petit pois (green peas) and since my fruit stock was near depletion, I decided - after quite a deal of hesitation - to eat it; it was like opening the gates of hell for all demons to come out; and in the next days I ate more and more crap aka rubish aka cooked matter (yeah that stuff aint even food); there was even a day when I ate two pieces of bread taken from a litter bin! (yeah, thats the truth... I was very hungry and I saw they looked clean and still a bit warm and thought it was a waste to just throw away two 'nice' pieces of bread and so on and so I just took them and ate them... yeah, call me crazy if you want; and I kept thinking: 'I'm already a walking litter bin anyways so what's the matter of eating something coming from a litter bin?'). 

I'd like to give you some background on the chicken dream (or rather, nightmare...). I have spent a month of vacations in Paris with my mother and a friend of hers who is a non-vegetarian with a very strange (imo) view of vegetarianism, cause she once 'd a boyfriend who would only eat vegetarian and organic and who was (according to her) a psycopath, so she'd absolutely refuse to eat anything that was organic or vegetarian; she declared in no uncertain terms that she needed meat; once we went to biocoop (an organic store) with her and she felt very bad just to be in there; she ended up buying some eggs and all

non-vegan stuff she could find (in the store). Considering her views on vegetarianism, I think you can guess how she viewed the LFRV diet: she thought of course 'u cant live only on fruit', like so many people do. Plus, my mother declared repeatedly that I shouldn't buy so many fruit because there was not enough room in the appartement... So, yeah, it was complicated... and I ended up eating lots of crap. One day I went to biocoop with my mother and she said she was gonna buy a tofu with all kinds of spices in it and she asked me if I would eat it; and I thought to myself: 'hell, I'm already eating all sorts of crap, so what sort of difference can it make' and I said 'yes'! That's where the question from the dream came from.

 

Then a day me and my mother arrived home and my mother's friend 'd prepared a soup and all the house was stinking like dead chicken, and she was siting there and eating it; and she greeted us and offered us a bit of the soup and we politely refused, and she kept offering it and offering it and we continued to refuse it, so she came with the argument that if I were in a desert island, where there are not enough plant food, I'd be forced to eat animals to survive; then I simply said I'm not currently in this island so there is not need for eating animals for survival at the moment; and she responded by saying that I could one day be in such an island, and we should be prepared for that, and that's why 'we cant be radicals'; and I responded by saying that I couldn't see how eating animals now could possibly be preparation for a hypothetical (and highly unlikely, by the way) future situation in which I would find myself in a desert island having to eat other animals to survive, that what I eat now has little bearing on what I'll eat in the future and hardly constitutes preparation for it, and that that was a silly and nonsensic argument cause it would also require us, were it valid, to eat larvae and vermine and all sorts of stuff and eat poo and drink pee and the like; and she started geting angrier but persisted with her argument; so I declared that if I actually found myself in a situation in which the only means of survival were sacrificing my fellow creatures, I'd rather die than kill. Actually, I confess I was also geting very nervous with this conversation and with all the smell that was in the air, so I shouted this at her and she said that's it and I couldn't treat her like that cos noone had ever treated her like that not even her mother and I had to learn to respect her cause she respected me, and she simply packed her things in the middle of the night and went away without anymore. I was so ashamed and embarassed that for a while a really thought I'd some kind of serious problem, that perhaps I was wrong in being a vegan, that perhaps we should eat meat after all, that I should look for a  philosopher to teach me why is it that we have the moral obligation of eating meat...

So, now I have just woken up from a very strange and most disturbing dream: I was reading a post (or watching a movie) from someone here on 30 bad who was defending meat-eating!!...  (yeah, seriously); as I can remember, he was saying that in the begining, vegans would only be able to eat one egg at a time, but then their 'meat aversion' (as he put it) would gradualy fade away and they would start including more 'generous' portions (he used this exact wording) of meat in their plates and that this would increase the 'nutritional value' of their meals. He argued that since meat 'tastes good', there must be some nutritional value to it; that if we weren't meant to eat it, it wouldn't 'taste good' to our palates.


Now, the 'one egg at a time' stuff clearly refers to the memory of one of Harley's videos where he mentioned that Westney Price recomended eating one egg a day or a piece of meat the size of an egg a day, whereas the talk about 'overcoming the meat aversion' stems from a discussion I once read on a paleo forum of a guy who wanted to do a vegetarian version of the paleo diet, and everyone (including himself) was saying this was an emotional choice, not a rational one and that if he was really gonna do that, he should absolutely not skip his daily dose of eggs, since it was his only source of B12; then they started a discussion about people who'd been vegan previously to trying the paleo stuff, wether they'd like to go back to vegan, and they enthusiasticaly said no, 'going back to vegan would be like going back to live with my parents', and about how diff it was to overcome the so-called 'meat-aversion' after one goes vegan. Needlees to say, I was most disturbed by these comments. I find it very sad that some people see veganism as some sort of 'childish thing'; i know a guy who is a corpse-eater and who says he used to be vegetarian when he was 'young and innocent' and quit it cos according to him it was 'just not practical in business trips', that you could offend your business partners if you didn't eat what they expect you to (a pretty lame excuse since I know of many warriors here who are low-fat raw vegan businessmen - or women).

The truth is: I've always been ashamed - and I still am quite a bit- of being a vegan, ashamed of openly declaring it unless asked. Yes, you've heard it right, I'm ashamed of not being a murderer while living in a society in which murdering and torturing sweet innocent creatures is considered the norm and you're thought to have a problem if you think otherwise; and I'm ashamed of being ashamed of it... (tears come to my eyes as I write this)

I am trying to figure out what is the meaning of this dream, why did I dream it. I think its probably due to some kind of nutrient defficiency; I've been eating quite poorly lately and yesterday was the s***iest day of all; I've been mostly 100% LFRV the last few days but I've been chronically undereating; also I've been sleeping poorly; fortunately I've been drinking quite alot of water (maybe 6l/day) and this seems to be helping me alot; also  I haven't been geting enough sodium from the diet (I haven't  been eating celery nor drinking coconut water lately), which makes me binge on salt; last night I ate some rice and red lentils with curry and onions and garlic and etc etc which my mother left in the pan (about a third or a fourth of a regular person's meal) and I added a lot (I mean a lot) of red pepper to it and also lemon; i haven't been eating any garlic or onion for several months by now (ok, perhaps a lil bit here and there, but not a regular thing; I've been avoiding it as much as possible, I think) and not eating cooked stuff for a few days (except that I'd eaten half a spoon of those lentils earlier cos my mother asked me to see if it was spoiled and also some spoonfuls here and there). I didn't feel too bad after eating it, probably bcs it was not so large a quantity. I also ate some red (quite spicy) peppers (by themselves). I have been loving to eat peppers lately.

So, after all this talk I have a few questions for you:


  1. What do you think of the argument that if something tastes good, then it has some nutritional value? That if it tastes good, then it means it's meant to be eaten? (I know this very argument's been sometimes used in support of eating fruit (and against eating other stuff cos it doesn taste so gud (starches,for instance)))
  2. I've been a vegan for 3 years by now, so I really can't remember the taste of meat (including poultry and fish). I woke up from my dream rather curious about how it'd taste like. So, I'd like to ask to those of you who can still remember, to answer in all sincerity: does it taste good? I've always thought meat would taste pretty awful by itself, that you'd have to add a lot of stuff to it for it to have a bearable taste,but I'd like to hear different opinions; I remember when I used to eat dead corpses, I used to think that being born without taste buds wouldv been a gift! (gladly this has changed and now i just luv luv luv the food I eat and that I can actually call food :) )
  3. On the topic of 'tasting good', why is it that things like onions, garlic, etc (seem to) taste 'good' to some (many) people if theyre toxic to us? Why is it that adding salt or spices to smthng that would taste pretty b(l)a(n)d by itself (e.g. rice) makes it taste better? Could it be that we're not prepared to analyse complex foods (i.e. mixtures) by their taste so its possible to 'fool' our taste buds in this way? One would expect that primitive men would eat (almost) only simple foods, so it seems reasonable that our palate should only be prepared to understand these kinds of foods.
  4. As I said before, I've been loving to eat peppers lately, even by themselves; I feel they warm me up inside. However, I understand opinions are very divided here regarding things like peppers and lemons, cos 'you cant make a meal outta them', which I think is a good argument, but I'd like to hear your opinion, specifically: what do you think of the above argument, whats its strenght to what extent is it applicable? what do you think of peppers and lemons (and ginger, curcuma, etc...)? should we eat them? should we avoid them? why or why not? I'd like to hear arguments both pro and against.

I thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to read and answer. I hope this was not too long and tiresome. I know this all may sound like a huge complaint but I desire not to complain but merely to tell my story and ask for your thoughts on it. I'll be forever indebted for those who hear me and express their own ideas about my thoughts cos its tough to find someone that can giv you attention these days.
luv <3 

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its about what tastes good to use in its raw, natural form. NO ONE has ever killed a deer with there car and then jumped out to eat the RAW flesh. THAT'S what meat tastes like. and i can't imagine that tastes good. And secondly, it's not appealing either! we don't get excited to see a baby deer (wich would be an easy kill and easy meal to a true meat eater) and get excited about eating it. we think, "awe what a cute little baby deer." But stumble across a blackberry bush and you bet you'll risk the cuts from the thorns to just get at those blackberries.

I ate very, very little meat as a child. the only thing i remember eating was hot dogs. when i was 5 or 6 i refused to eat any more meat because a began to understand where it came from. i was forever "thought" to be overly sensitive. and i hated being pegged as different in any way and tried not to be. But now that i'm older and wiser i know that i'm not overly senstive, others are mearly overly jaded. i think we're meant to feel the pain and joy of all of our surroundings. thats what would keep us true and pure. you wouldn't be hurting something if you felt and experienced the same pain and emotions of that being. But from ages 22-24 i lost my way and GAVE IN to the hurt of being labeled outcast and strange and i ate meat. To me it tasted dry and bland, like rubber. If you smothered it with other food then it was ok (because you really aren't tasting it) and steak, i spit out. its beyond gross to me. hope this helped give you some knew ideas and points of veiw.   

The idea of killing a deer and eating his raw flesh is as disgusting to me as it is to you, but it's all to easy and simple to suppose everyone in the world thinks just like we do. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of tastes, so there may very well be someone who's turned on by the idea.

You're realy lucky to have stoped eating dead corpses at such a young age; I only persisted eating this for so long cus I really thought we couldnt survive otherwise; just how lost I was...

I'm very moved by your words. wish you great success in the LFRV lifestyle.

luv n affection <3

Something tastes good for two reasons, nostalgia or body intelligence. With attention, one can tell the difference. Ones emotional, ones intuitive. 

Meat tastes terrible. Meat sauces taste good. Parasites can connect to your nervous system, telling you what tastes good to them, rather than to you. 

Salt excites, it doesn't enhance. Humans have lost their ability to enjoy the subtle tastes and energies, Good thing we can refind it.

I enjoy lemons as a salad dressing, I'm uneducated on the helpful and harmful qualities of them. 
After having a clean system, I've found it less enjoyable to eat spicy foods. It takes taste away from the food and can hurt digestion, among other things.

 

Thanks for the clear and helpful information. I find your 'parasite hypothesis' very interesting!

It would be interesting to wonder how does the 'nostalgia' mechanism work; is it perhaps a kind of synaesthesia?

I duno how sure I am that meat tastes terrible to everyone; how do you explain people who eat raw plain meat (not just paleo guys, but also some populations in central Asia); and it seems quite likely that men ate plain raw meat for millenia before the command of fire. Is it that people just get used to the taste of it and stop percieving it as bad? (like a story I read of a boy who started to get very fond of onions and eating huge quantities of it bcs he didnt have much else to eat (he ended up fainting from a severe anemia)). It's very common to hear from meat-eaters that they couldn't stop eating meat  because they so enjoy the taste of it. If all the taste came from the sauce, why couldn't they just eat the sauce without the meat? Why bother having several different kinds of meat? More expensive and less expensive cuts? All kinds of exotic meat and disgusting stuff? Do you think it has anything to do with taste? or is it just one of those cases in which people to silly stupid things just to look important and feel superior to others?

 I'm curious to hear your answers.

luv <3

Thanks for answering. I agree with u that cooked meat is an acquired taste not a natural one.

As for MSG tasting good, I have absolutely no idea how it tastes like so I duno.

Yeah, there's a lot of stress involved in the change; everyone around you become so very worried about you and think ure going crazy and embarking on another fad diet that's gonna kill u; they think it's some kind of rebellion, of adolescent crisis, or that ure doing this cause in reality ure depressed; and then u gotta prove to people that this stuff really works, and they want immediate results! Quickly! You gota feel at least as well in your new diet as you did before, no time for adaptation, no time for detox. But you body has to adapt to your new way of eating and living; it needs a time to understand what you're doing and to respond adequately do it; you also gotta pay somehow for your past mistakes; if you've been eating crap in the past, it's gonna turn up somehow; and u may experience some pretty bad moments in the begging; and of course people will always blame it on your new diet. Youre always underneath peoples expectations.

I think the only way out of it is to just live our lives and not pay attention to other peoples jugements; but thats tough! we're always wanting to please people, to see them happy, yet u cant please everyone everytime u gotta know ur limitations too...

I dont know how its been for you but to me thats pretty much how its been...

wish u much success on your LFRV journey!

luv<3

And as for Dr. Graham's book, I'd be deeply interested in it; however at the moment I'm living on a very tight budget so I can't afford buying; also not the kind of book we usually find in libraries here... so if you know how I could borrow an online copy of it till I can buy the book, I'd be very much grateful (if this is allowed of course; I duno what the rules are regarding this).

luv n affection <3

As for something tasting good and that having a relation to it being good for you, bogus. If that were true, then squirrels wouldn't eat whatever you give to them in touristy spots.

I've been without meat for about as long as you, but the dishes obviously tasted good or nobody would be eating them. The dish itself is good, with all the added flavors, textures, spices, etc, but as for plain meat tasting good is kind of iffy. Personally, I don't remember being a huge fan of un-dressed-up meat. If I try hard to think back on it, saltiness comes to mind; probably a combination of it typically being seasoned with salt, but if I think specifically of processed things like hot dogs and whatnot the saltiness that comes to mind becomes unbearable. I couldn't imagine eating it and enjoying it very much now. 

I can't fully answer your third question. I'd imagine we become desensitized, partially, to the warning signs we get from some of these foods. Salt, specifically, is tricky, since many animals seem to crave it. People use salt licks to attract the attention of animals all the time. 

Your fourth question I won't approach, since I really don't know.

The first year, perhaps year and a half, of eating a vegetarian diet, I too had these nightmares (oft referred to as "meatmares"). They wake you up with a mixture of panic/guilt. My belief is not that your body is trying to tell you that you need some certain nutrient. If what our bodies were trying to tell us came through in dreams, well, I'd suffering from a lack of flying and strange occurrences under that notion. In my case, things like this either come about in seemingly random fashion, or in times of heightened emotion (whatever the emotion may be) and maybe lack of sleep.

I don't know how helpful what I've written is, and I fully admit that I am not really in great knowledge of most of these things, but I could tell you were pretty stressed out and hoped to at least say something to help out. Sounds like you really need to take time to relax. I don't know if this is in line with forum rules, but whatever; in my opinion, getting your mind and the ensuing emotions under control takes precedence over diet, to an extent. I've been in your shoes. Sometimes the questions have to be dropped and the whole of life taken in a better light, day by day.

As for something tasting good and that having a relation to it being good for you, bogus. If that were true, then squirrels wouldn't eat whatever you give to them in touristy spots.


I think there is a relation between the two, the thing is not as straightforward as u put it; the point is as I said above our palates are not adapted to analyse the nutritional content of complex processed foods, but only raw unprocessed simple foods, in the form they'd ocurre in nature, in the ambient were we've evolved; and most food people give to squirrels is processed foods. There is no evolutionary reason why animals should be capable of analysing the nutritional value of a 'food' that wouldnt be present in their natural environment by means of taste sensation; on the contrary being able to discern trough taste which 'naturally-ocuring foods' are more nutritious does constitute an evolutionary advantage. 

So, yeah, when it comes to simple raw unprocessed foods in the form they occur in nature, then I do think the taste tell not only something but a lot! about the nutritional value of a food. why else does fruit taste so good? and it tastes so much better when it's ripe? and why do we crave certain tastes at certain moments; couldn't it be bcs tastes are associated with specific nutrients? sodium-savory is the most obvious association but I'm sure there are others. and why is it that organic tastes better than conventional? couldn't it be an indication that organic is more nutritious - as it actually is? (I remember once I bought two stalks of celery from a dutch supermarket - one organic and one conventional - and the organic one tasted so much better and more savory than the other one; couldn't this be an indication that the organic celery was richer in minerals - and sodium in particular - than the other one?)

However, the argument becomes fallacious when we apply it to processed or complex or otherwise not naturally-ocurring 'foods'. I think it would be interesting to ask wether a certain animal species that eats a specific diet (perhaps because it only occurs in a certain region, for example) would be able to analyse the nutritional content of a food that does not occur in its natural environment but only elsewhere (think for example of a certain species of squirrels that inhabits only a certain region and eats only certain kinds of nuts; its perfectly possible that there's a nut that is toxic to them, perhaps even lethal, but that only occurs in a region not inhabited by that species of squirrels, and that tastes very good to them, even similar to some nut they know about and like a lot; thats possible cause there wouldnt be any evolutionary advantage in being able to detect that that kind of nut is toxic, since the squirrels are not being subjected (are have not been subjected) to the selective pressure of having to test this nut for toxicity; there may very well be some squirrel of that species that finds this particular nut to be disgusting, so he'd never eat it, but this does not constitute any advantage to him, since that's not a relevant skill for survival in the region he inhabits).

Still, it'd be an extremely interesting question to ask what exactly makes certain non-natural foods taste good. We know very very little about the mechanism of taste perception so it's difficult to say.

But I think the message is clear: all this is just one more argument for eating whole raw naturaly occuring foods rather than unnatural processed complex foods: you can never really trust the latter, whereas the former always speak the truth... taste perception is like a conversation between the food you eat and your tongue; the taste you feel is your tongue communicating to you what food said to her about its qualities. Of course you'll prefer foods that are sincere rather than liers. But some people just wanna hear things that comfort them and make they persist in their bad ways, even if theire lies.

My belief is not that your body is trying to tell you that you need some certain nutrient. If what our bodies were trying to tell us came through in dreams, well, I'd suffering from a lack of flying and strange occurrences under that notion.


Again, I think you're being a little too simplistic here; dreams do tell us messages, but they're not straightforward; they have to be analysed in depth in order to be properly understood; of course not everything you dream must be necessarily related to a lack of something; but I don't see why lacks of all kinds, in particular nutrient defficiences, can't manifest themselves in dreams. I give u an example: my mother has been suffering from chronic anemia since at least her teens; some time ago, she had some odd dreams in which she would drink glasses of blood; perhaps there's some relation between the two things?


I don't know how helpful what I've written is, and I fully admit that I am not really in great knowledge of most of these things, but I could tell you were pretty stressed out and hoped to at least say something to help out. Sounds like you really need to take time to relax. I don't know if this is in line with forum rules, but whatever; in my opinion, getting your mind and the ensuing emotions under control takes precedence over diet, to an extent. I've been in your shoes. Sometimes the questions have to be dropped and the whole of life taken in a better light, day by day.

I don't know what exactly you mean by this, but if you're sugesting I should be looser with my diet, then unfortunately I can't take your advice; I realy don't see how this could possibly make me less stressed; I think emotional poise is something can be pursued while still eating and behaving in general the way I actually want to and am supposed to (by nature's laws); and the two happen to coincide!

I hope my reply wasn't too long and confusing; and your words were very helpful!

luv n affection n a penny for your thoughts <3

Meat does not taste good...meat is addictive and people think that if they want to eat something it must be because they like the taste of...it's all in the mind...anyway, as for your dream.  It seems to me your dream is asking you to make a decision.  Dreams are always giving us the ability to evolve.  In a psychological dream like the one you had, you are being asked to assert yourself in your relationship with your mother and your food...you are also being asked to become more mature and less negative with yourself.  You will probably have more and more dreams of this nature until you solve this issue.  You get to decide what the issue is that this dream is bringing up for you...it is not about how it looks, it is about how it makes you feel. It is not about being the perfect vegan, it is about being an authentic you.  The parallels to your waking life are no accident and you may find some answers if you pay attention to your dreams and interact in the outcome, that changes your waking life.

I'll answer your post tomorrow since it's geting far far too late now. It seems i've goten so excited with all this that I'm forgeting to do the most important and basic things: "sugar, water sleep".

 luv <3

Sounds like negative entities interfering with your dreams and trying to program you back to slavery. Practice lucid dreaming.

I seriously disagree with the negative entities idea SS...actually I think he is in contact with a dreaming teacher in disguise.  If he evolves in this dream test the teaching will be revealed.  Lucid dreaming is absolutely a great tool to help with that.  He needs to think about what his mother represents, what eating represents, how these situations make him feel.  He is being tested with what is already present inside him, the way he relates to his environment and relationships and how he views himself in relation to his diet. 

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