I became incredibly engaged in a discussion about low-fat/high-fat with an individual on youtube yesterday. I said something about the tropics/equator/human development and I was wreck-less in how I said it so it was translated as garbage.
The opposing individual responds that during our development we would have had times of HCLF during summer but likely would have switched to a more HFLC during winter.
I am not a historian so when thinking about history and how it connects to our diet, it easily confuses and overwhelms me. I do know that the most recent evidence shows we ate the largest percentage of our diet from leafy greens basically >>http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-arg...
How do you all feel about this seasonal switch up of calories ratios? It makes sense when thinknig of early humans surviving through the winter (when they were in actually cold regions!) but at the same time not because if we truly did inhabit the equatorial area for a large part of our development, than we would not have experienced winter.
I am looking for information I may have missed or have scrambled because of my recent dealings with high-fat advocates.
For info. on what is our natural diet, I like these two videos:
And this book> Return to the Brain of Eden
And this chart:
As for eating higher fat different times of year, it would be when a fatty fruit came into season and for a short period. Eating high fat results in immediate taxing to our body so we are definitely not made to eat that away for any extended period, a good demonstration of that here: How to Become Diabetic in Six Hours
There is just too much information. If someone already has a strong opinion, they will almost never transition.
Its AMAZING how much info exists to support a high-fat diet! ....same for low-fat.
It becomes so much more than just about nutrition. Each side branches out to various subjects to make connections and explain their viewpoint, by the time this happens a few times they are so far out that they might as well discuss the meaning of the universe.
It takes time and thought but there is no other right conclusion than vegan is the way for health, the environment and ethics. The science is there on all three. You may be interestd in this exceptional thread all about how to argue for vegan: 30badigo HQ - discuss strategy here!
"It takes time and thought but there is no other right conclusion than vegan is the way for health, the environment and ethics. The science is there on all three. "
^^O boy do i know. I have learned so much the past 2 years that i have remembered little and can never remember or find things quick enough during a discussion. I have never been one to talk much and therefore my communication skills, well debate style communication, is not developed.
I have always stood behind the vegan whole-plant raw style since i first began* Every so often I encounter individuals who have intense opinions, and they also have a better understanding of the science as well as usually more time studying it, plus! more developed communication skills. But every time, I am allowed to read more and strengthen my own knowledge. Plus see more into their world. it becomes easy to understand how people can get trapped in the high-fat realm. Especially if they have no sense of moral issues that would lead them down the vegan road.
The science supports high-fat, FACE VALUE. Its takes fine examination of these studies to show somethings different. Some studies they use to promote high-fat actually conclude that high-fat is worse.
The season thing interests me because i am all about holistic everything. So it would make sense that going high-fat for a handful a weeks per year has the POSSIBILITY to increase health even more so than high-carb 365. But even with this, variety becomes an issue. High-fat vegan leaves you with processed oils, nuts/seeds, and avocados, with a small amount of berries, maybe.
Well, i sure don't want to eat a bunch of processed oil or most likely rancid nuts/seeds (altho if freshness could be verified?) So in the end, it looks like a high-fat vegan diet consisting of whole foods would be mostly avocados. and thats not healthy long term.
I feel like the mechanisms that allow them to do so good or for that one guy to eat nothing but meat and fat for a year and not get scurvy, is based behind either A)the body doing everything it can to stay alive and the fact that it is actually being fed creates a sense of health, or B)they just have REALLY strong beliefs.
Thanks for the link to the strategy page!
*I have witnessed full-on 80/10/10 raw health. Its the best there is. When its not feasible for whatever reasons, starches have been good to me. Any type of fat, if it gets up over 15% for days in a row, talks me to halt.
That strategy page will help you get good at arguing effectively. I tend to just give folks a name of a book or video and say the conclusion is indisputable, see for yourself if you care to know the truth. :D
Truly just being a presence has an effect on people. I just heard a great story from Doug Lisle about his brother-in-law at a Thanksgiving dinner, Doug did not say a word but his brother-in-law kept reacting to the fact that Doug was eating healthy and he was not. If you can get a copy of The Pleasure Trap DVD at your library, you may need to do an inter-library loan, it's a great set of talks.
oh and this article is so awesome:
Family & Friends
Posted by Lisa Towell at 5:12 PM | Permalink | Comments (14)
©2011 Jupiterimages Corporation
Most people resist changing their opinions or behavior. But when they decide that change is advantageous, their resistance melts away and they can transform themselves. A crucial part of this process is repetition. A lifelong smoker might not choose to give up cigarettes the first time she reads a study about the dangers of tobacco. She might even look for contrary evidence to reinforce her desire to continue. But if her daughter confronts her and asks her to change, more studies about lung cancer appear in the news, and her doctor raises the subject during a checkup, our smoker might finally choose to quit.
I’m always trying to find more effective ways to tell people about the suffering of animals who are raised for food. Since the vast majority of people oppose cruelty to animals, you’d think it would be easy to persuade people to stop eating them. But what we choose to eat is a very personal matter, and most of us don’t like to be told what to put on our plates.
I have a theory that people must hear 50 repetitions of a vegetarian or vegan message before they decide to change their eating habits. Of course, that number is different for each person, but I do think that it takes a lot of exposure to the issue before people will alter something as important as their diet. The repetitions can take many different forms, such as interacting with an animal, watching a video, or talking to a vegan acquaintance.
I remember my first exposure to the issue. When I was a girl, my dad used to set crab traps and take me on fishing expeditions. I was horrified when I saw the fish waiting in a bucket to be killed with a sharp knife. I can also remember how the crabs struggled as my mom lowered them into boiling water. But I continued to eat animals. In college and in the workplace, I had vegetarian friends who talked eloquently about their reasons for not eating animals. But my 50th repetition didn’t come until I was 34 and saw a terrified goat get slaughtered by having his throat cut. I went vegetarian overnight—but that “overnight” decision was many years in the making.
When I talk with people about the suffering caused by meat, dairy, and egg production, I can often tell from their responses how many repetitions they’ve heard:
“But we have to eat meat, milk, and eggs to be healthy.” (Number three.)
“I’m going to order an extra steak to make up for you vegan idiots.” (Number 18.)
“I respect your right to be a vegan. Why don’t you respect my personal choices?” (Number 32.)
“I don’t eat much meat at home, and I only order free-range organic meat at restaurants.” (Number 45.)
It can be frustrating to be someone’s number 18 and get a hostile or defensive response. But every once in a while you get to be number 50. Recently, I was dining out with some friends and answered a few questions about the abuses endured by animals on factory farms. I didn’t think I’d had much of an impact, but I heard later that the woman who’d asked the questions had decided to go vegetarian.
When I get discouraged by people’s indifference to the plight of cows, chickens, and pigs, I remind myself that a number three is just as important as a number 50. Each repetition makes vegetarian and vegan diets seem a little less strange and a little more mainstream. The early repetitions might actually be the most important ones. If a hard-core meat-eater is hostile to me, I can fire back a nasty remark and reinforce the meat-eater’s belief that vegans are self-righteous jerks. Or I can respond with a polite smile and show that that I’m obviously concerned about helping animals, and maybe this person will be able to skip all the way to number 50 the next time he or she hears the message.
What was your experience in reaching number 50? If you’re not a vegetarian yet, what number would you guess you’re at?
That was wonderful. Thank you :)
The conversation I was having with the person is over. If I made any impact, it was a small one. They were an older gentlemen who is a "businessman" and is controlling his diabetes with a high-fat diet. He said he eats lots of veggies and fruit regularly. But he didn't seem to budge about the issue overall.
He has absorbed an incredibly different set of data and his opinions are based on that. unfortunately he didn't want to have anything to do with including variables that are not usually involved. ...feeding the world of the future. I like to think of the big picture when thinking about any issue such as this. Gotta include everything because it is all connected.
It is his opinion that it would be easier to feed 7+bil a high-fat diet, than a vegan high-carb diet. Its his opinion that it costs more to transport fruit around than it does to raise animals. ....and wow, i guess im typing this to realize this next point. The OVERALL cost of raising animals is far more than fruit. Maybe not monetarily but with the environmental impacts calculated in, it is. He also must not realize that we currently ship animals around the planet, possibly more so than fruit, i do not know. Therefore, his argument on this point is completely false :)
The future will be different than now, I dont think ANYONE would argue that. I have been made aware of technology that would allow EVERY person to grow 90-100% of their own food on their own land (or nearby building for city dwellers). We live in a world where the technology exists right now to develop a completely automated gardening system within a bio-dome which would allow someone in the artic to grow tropical fruit.....obviously there is likely to be some exceptions.
He also didnt want to hear about free energy or the deep connection everything has to everything else. All things that should be considered when talking about, really, the future, and where nutrition is headed.
I did win! I learned more new information from the encounter than, I believe, he did. I never became angry, just excited.
The most wonderful agreement exists between high-carbers and low-carbers. We all understand that its all about WHOLE foods. It seems that as long as the body is given whole foods and either low fat or high fat (equal or close to equal ratios of fat and carb is what leads to all the ailments) It does just fine. But we sure dont have a variety of VEGAN high-fat foods.
There is so much more to say :/ lol
What I am most interested in now is this supposed action of high-fat increasing mitochondria in the brain. BUT at the same time, maybe it does this to better protect itself in lieu of the energy source. I have contacted a few professionals that have helped my journey so far and I know they will lead me to the truth! :)
I am just starting the book Whole By T. Colin Campbell, he is talking about the science behind 10% or less fat, 10% protein and 80% carbs. Should be some good stuff in there!
Thats a good book! It was by far my favorite nutrition/diet book.
It where I learned about how much more of an impact methane has vs CO2.
I agree with the 80/10/10. Its where I feel best. I can feel 15% and 20% slows me by about 1/3.
Not trying to say i wanna switch to high-fat. Its completely impossible, long-term, as a vegan. With the information I have been blessed with, it is likely that there are real benefits in short fasts, 24hr or less. Thats totally doable and I know its made me feel better when its happened unintentionally as a result of being busy or whatever. Granted there is usually caffeine involved on those days but that leads to an issue of, what does your body use as fuel when its hi on caffiene? Does it burn fat, protein, the ATP has got to be coming from somewhere.
There is no reason to not take advantage of this if it turns out to increase health even more than an optimal diet. That's what I meant with everything I said. ...who knows, maybe everything i just said in this message is unnecessary as a result of me mal-translating your reply! :) good stuff
...yep, I need a break from data for a few days!
I just finished the 2nd talk......soooooooo good!
The Pleasure Trap?