Ok so i got this reply from my discussion about overeating on carbs and stuff... first i had this great reply from durian that set me straight, and then this reply came... i know its very long but please take the time to reply.
Also if any others have insight feel free to comment aswell ! not JUST durian =)
"Basal metabolic rate (BMR), thermic effect of food (TEF), and total daily energy expenditure (TDEE) were measured in six nonobese and seven obese adolescents during periods of weight maintenance and 2 wk of carbohydrate overfeeding. BMR and TEF were measured by indirect calorimetry and TDEE by the doubly labeled water method. Fasting blood levels of insulin, thyroid, and norepinephrine (NE) and urinary excretion of NE and 4-hydroxy-3-methoxymandelic acid (VMA) were measured before and after overfeeding. Energy intake was 1.61 X BMR during maintenance and 2.45 X BMR during overfeeding. BMR increased comparably in both groups during overfeeding (obese, 7.9 +/- 1.2%, nonobese, 8.6 +/- 1.9%). TEF was similar and did not change significantly during overfeeding (maintenance: obese, 9.4 +/- 0.6%; nonobese, 9.8 +/- 0.4% vs. overfeeding: obese, 8.6 +/- 0.3%; nonobese, 9.2 +/- 0.7%). TDEE did not differ significantly between obese and nonobese. Increases in insulin and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine levels were significant but did not differ between the two groups. Plasma NE and urinary excretion of VMA and NE did not increase during overfeeding. The thermogenic response to food or to overfeeding does not appear reduced in obese adolescents, nor doesfacultativethermogenesis appear to be a significant factor in weight maintenance in adolescents."
"Results of studies on diet-induced thermogenesis in obese persons are contradictory. A number of factors have been postulated to mediate the obligatory and facultative component ofthermogenesis. This study was designed to investigate some further factors mediating the carbohydrate-induced thermogenesis in obese women. In 13 obese women, thermogenic responses to glucose and fructose were compared and related to subsequent hormonal changes. The thermogenic effect after fructose ingestion was significantly (p<0.006) higher in comparison with glucose, despite lower values for both glucose and insulin concentrations. Carbohydrate oxidation was significantly higher after fructose (81+/-7 E% vs 62+/-10 E% p<0.01) while oxidation of fat was lower (10+/-9 E% vs 21+/-12 E% p<0.01). These effects may partly be due to the de novo lipogenesis and/or to changes in cellular metabolism. No clear relationship could be found between thermogenesis and the activity of the sympathetic nervous system, as expressed by urinary catecholamine levels. These results indicate that not insulin but the cellular rate of carbohydrate metabolism is responsible for the thermogenic response to different carbo-nutrients."
"From a 7-day food recording in 29 morbidly obese patients two groups of six patients each were selected: a high-energy-intake group (HEI) and a low-energy-intake group (LEI). The groups were otherwise comparable. Five lean subjects served as controls for some observations. Oral glucose tolerance tests showed that all patients in the HEI group and the lean controls had normal glucose tolerance, whereas it was abnormal in all subjects in the LEI group. The fasting metabolic rate did not differ between the obese groups but was significantly lower in the lean group. The glucose-induced thermogenesis during 180 min expressed as a percentage of the energy content of the glucose load was lower in both obese groups compared with the lean controls (lean: +11.5 per cent, HEI: +5.3 per cent and LEI: -4.2 per cent, HEI vs lean: P = 0.04 and LEI vs lean: P = 0.005), and lower in the LEI group compared with the HEI group (P = 0.02). The integrated increase in leg oxygen consumption after glucose was also smaller in the LEI group than in the HEI group (15 +/- 269 vs 987 +/- 356 ml, P less than 0.05). The arterial noradrenaline response to glucose was significantly diminished in both obese groups compared with the lean controls. Glucose induced a similar increase in leg noradrenaline release in both obese groups, whereas the arterial adrenaline level was lower in the LEI group compared with the HEI group and with the lean controls (P = 0.04). Among the obese subjects the degree of glucose intolerance was inversely correlated with the post-glucose arterial adrenaline level (r = -0.55, and P = 0.04), and positively correlated with the fractional leg adrenaline extraction (r = 0.71, and P = 0.003). The results suggest that patients who are obese in spite of a fairly low energy intake have a reduced glucose-induced facultativethermogenesis, and that the defect is at least in part located in skeletal muscle. Since the sympathetic nervous system is partly responsible for the glucose-induced thermogenesis, the reduced thermogenic response in the obese patients may be due to an impaired activation of the sympathetic nervous system. It is hypothesized that the reduced arterial adrenaline level in the LEI group is caused by hyperglycaemic suppression of the adrenomedullary secretion and further that this may be a link connecting deterioration of glucose tolerance and a thermogenic defect in obesity."
To examine differences in meal-induced thermogenesis and macronutrient oxidation between lean and obese women after consumption of two different isocaloric meals, one rich in carbohydrate (CHO) and one rich in fat.
A total of 19 lean and 22 obese women were studied on two occasions, 1 wk apart. In one visit they consumed a CHO-rich meal and in the other visit a fat-rich meal. The two meals were isocaloric and were given in random order. Resting energy expenditure and macronutrient oxidation rates were measured and calculated in the fasting state and every hour for 3 h after meal consumption.
Meal-induced thermogenesis was not different between lean and obese subjects after the CHO-rich (P = 0.89) or fat-rich (P = 0.32) meal, but it was significantly higher after the CHO-rich compared with the fat-rich meal in the lean and the obese individuals (P < 0.05). Protein oxidation rate increased slightly but significantly after the test meals in both groups (P < 0.01). Fat oxidation rate decreased after consumption of the CHO-rich meal (P < 0.001), whereas it increased after consumption of the fat-rich meal in both groups (P < 0.01). CHO oxidation rate increased in both groups after consumption of the CHO-rich meal (P < 0.001). Oxidation rates of protein, fat, and CHO during the experiment were not significantly different between lean and obese participants.
Meal-induced thermogenesis and macronutrient oxidation rates were not significantly different between lean and obese women after consumption of a CHO-rich or a fat-rich meal."
I think it's safe to say, if you overeat on carbohydrates worth 1000kcal/day (about 250g/d) long-term, you're going to get obese eventually, though it may depend on genetic disposition, muscle mass, hydration, sleep etc how fast.
If all excess carbohydrates were oxidised without turning into liver fat etc, you'd get feverish every single time you massively overeat. Elsewise, where does the oxidisation energy that is released go to?
Unnecessary to say, that's NOT me saying 'fruit makes you fat'. I just don't agree with
IMPOSSIBLE to get fat from excess carbs
Where is the science that proves it?
(ok this reply was very long but i hope you will take the time to set this straight, i think you most def. have an answer to this like always... but this is exactly what i was talking about, what the science of the body is about and what causes us NOT to gain fat on this lifestyle than others?)
Thanks ! :)
The reason you can't get fat on fruit and veg is because of the high water and fiber content it's impossible to overeat.
Show me the people who got fat on fruit and veg.
I was vegan & losing weight - then went on hcrv and haven't been losing weight or inches.
In my case I think I was over-using dates to get my calories up. They are SO dense that you probably COULD get fat on them, LOL. But it probably isn't healthy to eat THAT many per day! Not long-term, anyway.
I found something that was saying you COULD gain weight on carbs, but at a 10x less rate than with fat, because your body has to burn so much fuel to MAKE that carb into fat. And your body will never use a carb for fat production if there's a fat molecule to be found.
But getting fat on properly eating fruits & veg? I doubt it. The way I'm eating (I'm cutting down on dates and concentrating on juicier fruits) I can't see maintaining this higher weight for long.
I'm going to Google "fat fruitarian" and see what I find... LOL
ETA: I found nothing. :D
I also wonder: if you are consistently eating such a nutrient-rich diet with plenty of calories, I'm sure this will drive your metabolism UP and make you less like to store fat anyway. Perhaps you & I aren't losing weight yet because our bodies are still recovering from too FEW calories in the past!
Well said Saba. Also Wendy I've found such a huge correlation between people gaining weight and not being active enough. As long as you are walking or doing some kind of work outs, it helps your body sooo much. It's a completely new way of eating and your body may not be used to it yet. Fruit will make you extremely lean, no matter how much you eat!!!! I can attest to eating a huge meal before bed and waking up with a flat tummy. You don't have anything to worry about!
i say simple too as rawbert your body stores complex carbs, proteins (takes longer to break down) and fats simple carbs are not stored but used as energy or passed up. also burning out those other long sitters eh ?
Why anyone cares about this kind of researches ? Get the fruits and veggies in, as fresh as possible and that's it. People are worrying too much on stuff, they should not.
The best food is fresh food. You need exercise, sleep, fresh air, sunshine, water, social activities...........
Start counting your calories, don't take in too much or too less, take in exactly enough. Why would you eat until you are full, if you don't have to ? You can eat 6x500kcals or 3x1000kcals, it is the same. Every people have brain, so control yourself, and you won't overeat.
Thanks sarah... hey can you tell me how i know how much i need?
ok but how do i know exactly what i need every day? sometimes im doing exersice, sometimes a lot sometimes little.. somtimes nothing.
How do i know? i cant google it cause that would tell me about 2000-2500 on a SAD diet and from what i understand, its not the same...
30 BAD gave you some pretty good guidelines.
80/10/10 gave you some pretty good guidelines.
YOU have to figure out the rest Karen!
How would I know what you need lol?
I'm not there.. you are..
For example, there is a glucose tolerance test given to pregnant women in western medical settings. After eating their regular SAD diets, and without consideration that fats can stay within the blood stream for up to 48 hours, these women are given a cup of pure glucose, and then after some time, (I can't remember, an hour or two) they are given a blood test. Many of them show a rise in blood sugar, the glucose is mistakenly blamed, not their SAD diet, they are diagnosed as having gestational diabetes, and put on special low car diets and in some rare cases medication and insulin, money makers for the labs and the doctors and the pharmacies.
It is funny how once the baby is born, the "gestational" diabetes immediately clears up?
So yes, Ian, you are asking excellent questions here. How and what were they fed, were all the dietary factors controlled, who paid for the studies, etc.
I started reading that but realized it was over my head, the main thing I was thinking while I was reading though, was "where are these carbs coming from? I doubt its from fruits..." and as someone mentioned, complex carbs are stored, simple carbs are not. This study is irrelevant and flawed for use as rhetoric for the "fruit makes you fat" argument because of the fallacious thinking that sugar is sugar, fruit is sugar, and its all the same and this is simple reductionist thinking.
I do not know what science says BUT I know what real results from real people (me too) say . People who eat fruit based diet are slim ...