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As I understand it, the concept goes like this: Drugs are always bad.  Disease is a healing process.  Practice natural hygiene and you won't need all that Western medicine.


So why do wild animals suffer outbreaks of disease?  Examples in frugivores:



This fungus is devastating bat populations now.


Here are a bunch of afflictions affecting primates:



Gorillas can get pneumonia and cancer.



Here are some killers of wild gorillas.



Gorillas and chimps have been devastated by ebola.



So what am I missing?

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There is no danger, that yours will ever fall out ... It is way too tight.
Good one Yogaranka:)
By the way, my purpose is to defend veganism, especially LFRV. People come here, see this craziness, and dismiss the concept. I used to send fruit-phobes here to see how it can work, but I don't think I can anymore. People have told me they've been turned off by this.

Also, to defend children. How one could withhold a treatment that protects a child is something I can't understand.

If you want to persuade parents to vaccinate their children, I believe you would be far more successful through a peaceful, scientific approach with well-backed and researched arguments. Your current approach hardly makes you appear more credible than those you oppose.


Plantivore IMHO has a stronger approach. Surely the vast majority of parents honestly want the best for their children. I believe the choice not to vaccinate more often than not is a very conscious one and based on at least some research, which the choice to vaccinate most often is not. I would imagine (at least some of) the parents who choose not to vaccinate would be interested in research and data - I know I am. Ridiculing people is hardly likely to give you a good night's sleep.


As far as your scepticism goes, Fiona and Plantivore, for good or for ill, 30BaD is not a place for scepticism of its own message. They state very clearly that such discussions are better taken elsewhere - I am surprised this one is still up.


If you would like to discuss vaccination in particular, I have a family-oriented website at www.lfrvfamilies.com. It is very quiet so far, but you're welcome to register & post as long as you do so with respect.

Your argument is to combine our screen names? This is not even ad hominem, just childish.

Interesting questions Plantivore. I will try to address the questions in the original post. I must admit that I'm not entirely sure what your motifs for this post are or whether you are genuinely interested in finding out/learning more about NH or just wanting to express your own beliefs.


Drugs are always bad. 

I'm sure you are referring to pharmaceutical drugs here (though I can never be certain since many people try to put forward a case today for the medicinal benefits of marajuana and other "naturally occuring substances". In the vast majority of cases pharmaceutical drugs are considered a detrimental and completely unnecessary intervention.

However, in a small minority of cases, such as traumatic injuries of accidents, the individual may need immediate operation or surgery to repair broken bones/damaged tissue. In this case he/she may require an anasthetic. This is not natural but to save someone's life I'm sure most of us can agree that in this instance its a necessary intervention. I think the modern Natural Hygienists agree that for traumatic injuries, modern medicine and doctors have a valuable purpose and I think in this respect they do an absolutely essential and fantastic job.


Disease is a healing process.


Well, not entirely. NH's believe that it is the body that does all the healing and that disease is the body's attempt to eliminate toxins at a faster rate than normal because, in its infinite wisdom, the body realises that the level of toxins in the body have reached a level which requires immediate attention and action. The issues arise when we think that "disease" is something that needs to be countered. Modern medicine tells us that any symptoms need to be met with a pill or drug. In the vast majority of cases, the cause of the symptoms is just an overload of toxins. The post below has been posted here before (I am not the author, another member was), but summarises very well the views of "disease" from the perspective of NH:


But remember that all stages of the disease process are remedial, they are all instituted by the body, they are all the body's desperate attempt to rid itself of toxins in order to survive and heal itself.

Here, briefly, are the 7 stages:

1. Enervation. This is truly the first stage, the first sign that we have that the body is overloaded. The body feels tired, feels dragging around, feels less than vital. The body's communication system, electrical system, is the nerves. All of the body's activities, whether internal or external, are directed and coordinated via the nerves. When the body is overloaded with toxins, the neural system's functioning is impaired, and therefore all of the body's activities are slowed and less efficient. This results in smooth, normal cleansing and healing being impaired and slowed, and there is a back up in eliminating toxins, and so the body seeks to repair it. It therefore makes us feel tired, so that we will rest, so that the body can be re-charged to function normally again.

2. Toxemia. This would be where one might feel polluted, or just "bone tired", exhausted, very cold and achy, where someone might "feel a cold coming on", or "feel a flu coming on". These are all sign that the body must have rest and sleep and be kept warm, right away. Even before I'd ever heard of any of this, I'd noticed that every time I got a "flu", it was preceded by this kind of experience. I discovered that I could avert the full blown "flu" if, as soon as I got this feeling, I took a nice long hot bath, and went straight to bed and slept. That's toxemia.

3. Irritation. This is the stage where the body is getting overloaded with toxins to the point where it is must urgently get rid of them or take drastic action, and the body eliminates it in various sites extraordinarily--it may be through the sinuses, in the form of sneezing, or through the skin, in the form of a rash or itch, for example. We might also see increased mucus secretion, as mucus is a transport medium for toxins, out of the body.

4. Inflammation. This is full blown, acute cleansing, from "mild" to very acute, depending on the body's needs and according to its wisdom of what will save its life. Remember that all "disease" is the solution, the life-saving process, instituted by the body, to rid itself of the toxins, which are in reality urgently threatening the body's vitality, and in fact its very life. Inflammation includes "colds", "flu", "allergies", bladder "infection", kidney "infection", sinusitis, rhinitis, appendicitis, pancreatitis, arthritis, bursitis, thyroiditis, and any other kind of "-itis", or any other condition where the body has inflammation or "infection". It is all inflammation, there is no such thing as "infection". In inflammation, the body "inflames" an organ, or the site of an injury, wherever it is deemed necessary--it fills the site with blood, lots of activity, heat--fever is REMEDIAL, the body steps up the heat to help the healing and cleansing, fever is never harmful, and the bacteria population increase to gobble up the dead cells and toxins that are being eliminated. There is stepped up activity at the site of inflammation--there is heat at the site, everything is fast, the body is dramatically working to rid itself of toxins, cells live and die quickly. It is also systemic, all healing involves the whole body, and the fever which is the body temperature elevated throughout the whole body, is vital as a part of the healing and cleansing process.

5. Ulceration. This is the first stage of degenerative or chronic disease. The body's toxic load must be eliminated, so the body takes the dramatic action of destroying the cells of the different layers of skin or membrane and tissue below, in order to make an opening through which the body can push out toxins. These are like little volcanoes, and include what we call ulcers, but also things like canker sores, cold sores, pimples, acne, "herpes", various chronic skin conditions such as eczema, psoriasis, and I think some of what are referred to as STD's.

6. Induration. This is tumor formation, which is at this stage considered "benign". The body is so overloaded with toxins that it cannot get rid of fast enough to keep it from killing the body, through any of the previous stages, so it begins to make soft or eventually hard cases in which to store the toxins, to keep it out of the bloodstream and the vital organs. The body often puts these tumors in the places which are the least important to its immediate survival, such as the reproductive organs, but they can occur anywhere in the body that the body in its infinite wisdom needs to put them.

7. Cancer. Cancer is not the fearsome killer people are taught to believe it is. It is simply another stage of the body's ability to heal and cleanse us, the final attempt, quite dramatic. The body's cells, probably specialized phagocytic cells, are used by the body to ingest the toxins, which are saturating the body and so totally exceeding the body's capacity to eliminate them fast enough, that the body must resort to sacrificing large numbers of cells to ingest and contain the toxins in order to keep them out of the vital organs and the blood, in an attempt on the part of the body to continue to carry on life in spite of the toxins. It is said, having been observed, by even mainstream science, that when inflammation or irritation have gone on too long at a site, it becomes cancer--they are observing some of the stages of the disease process. Disease never harms the body. Cancer, like any other stage of disease, is remedial. Death does not come from disease, rather disease is what the body uses to save it from death. Death comes from continuing to increase the toxic load, by ingestion of toxins and subjecting the body to toxins, including the huge toxic and enervating overload from drugs, radiation and chemo, and such. After cancer, the body has no more defenses left. It is the final stage in which the body can still struggle against the toxic overload.

The problem is not "disease". The problem is toxins, poisons. Disease is the solution.

The body is a totally self-cleaning, self-healing, self-repairing system, and will always seek to cleanse, heal, and repair itself, to the best of its ability, and will employ the process of disease in doing soóthat is the entire purpose of disease, and the symptoms we experience are manifestations of that process.

When we cooperate with the body, in whichever stage the body is struggling to cleanse and heal itself, the body can decrease its toxic load, move back through the stages of disease, and ultimately recover full health.

How do we cooperate with the body? The first thing is to stop ingesting toxins, as thoroughly as possible. Drugs of any kind indluding "natural" ones, cooked food, herbs, irritants, animal products, food that is incompatible with the body. And inimical practices, anything that enervates the body, such as stress, overwork, medical procedures, anything that weakens or compromises the body including diets, yes enemas too. When we "treat" symptoms, when we seek to get rid of symptoms, that is going against the body's efforts, and just foils the body's efforts to try to cleanse and heal and further enervates and toxifies us..

We need to provide the conditions under which the body can function without impediment, and which provide the raw materials of life. This includes our optimal diet of fresh raw fruits, leafy veggies, nuts and seeds, as close to the form as they come in Nature as possible. This also includes sunshine, constant fresh air, keeping the body warm enough, plenty of rest and especially sleep, as much as the body may desire.

We need to fast, meaning total rest, eyes closed, water only, when the body gives us acute symptoms and takes away our hunger. It is only at these times that one should fast, and only for as long as the body dictates--only until the return of hunger. This is vital for the body to be able to accomplish its extraordinary healing and cleansing efficiently and quickly, and must be done. There is no substitute for this. Usually the extraordinary healing is accomplished quickly, though occasionally the body may need to do it longer. It is always recommended that fasting be done under the supervision of a competent practitioner, particularly if one has extremely acute symptoms, and if the fast is of any duration. And it's important for anyone to know as much as possible about fasting before undertaking it, especially "Fasting Can Save Your Life" and "The Science and Fine Art of Fasting", both by Herbert Shelton, and widely available, including on amazon.com.


I agree with the author when he says that only in the absence of hunger should one fast. Perhaps the only other time you should fast is when your vital organs are functioning so poorly that you cannot properly digest and assimilate physiological foods. If this is the case, then either fasting or taking time out of a stressful schedule will be the best solutions, in my opinon.


Practice natural hygiene and you won't need all that Western medicine.

One can significantly reduce their chances of ever needing to visit a medical professional, if they abide by the laws of nature and learn how to meet their physiological needs very well. On page 10 of the 80/10/10 diet, Dr Douglas Graham does a very good job of presenting a list of human physical, emotional, spiritual and mental requirements.


You might need to see a doctor for a muscle/joint injury, but you probably go 99.99% less than you had done before. Why? Doctors are trained to manage symptoms. Most of them help people to trade one set of symptoms for another.


As far as fungus is concerned, it is an organism, just like us, with the primary focus on survival. This organism survives by multiplying and spreading, using other organisms as a transferrence and feeding mechanism. It is similar to a parasite. Humans, as well as other animals, can very well be infected with parasites. This does not need to be debated, in my opinion.


This quote is taken from the second list you provided

It is customary to divide the diseases that threaten apes into two classes, human introducedand “naturally” occurring. However, the impact of modern humans on tropical forests is now sooverwhelming that the distribution and prevalence of many pathogens that are currentlyviewed as “natural” may actually be indirectly influenced by modern human activities.

I believe this sums it all up. Why do animals in nature suffer? Personally, I believe humans are responsible for the other animals getting cancer. We are the ones that have damaged the air, water, soils, plants, and natural balances. We are the ones who introduced substances such as mercury, asbestos, lead and many other highly toxic chemicals into products and their air. We know that diet and exercise play a significant role in preventing cancer, heart disease and obesity (check the WHO and respected studies such as China Study). However, most experts agree that environmental factors also contribute towards cancer. In other words, the poisons that humans introduced into the food, water and air supply can cause degenerative conditions. The body will always fight until the very end with all resources it has. It will always communicate with us what is the best thing to do. For instance, have you ever felt sick, run down, cold, tired and not hungry? The body is saying "please get to bed, keep warm and rest". It is not saying "please take some paracetemol or some garlic or some chicken soup! Only cultural and traditional reasons have caused us to respond to a feeling of sickness in these ways.


Also, thanks to modern agriculture and recent methods, we are depleting our soils with horrible consequences for the plant and animal kingdom alike. If the cow grazes all day on nutrient deficient soil, it will show signs of deficiencies. If there's a lack of a particular mineral in most soil's, it does'nt matter whether you eat the plant or the animal that has eaten the plant, you will not get the nutrient. If the nutrient is essential, then there will be serious symptoms since the body uses essential nutrients to maintain normal functioning. In my honest opinion, humans are damaging the earth is so many ways, that for us to expect everything to be going well for other species is wishful indeed.


What are you missing? That's not for me to determine. As we learn and grow as people, our beliefs change along with our understanding of other things. After experiencing years of sick health, I have finally found a way of living that gives me hope. NH principles give me an honest chance to regain my health, and I hve yet to find another philosophy that comes close to matching the concept of NH. Over time, I have experimented and learnt that the "one shoe fits all" idea does not work. For instance, some people need more sunshine, some need less. Some people need more rest and sleep due to more healing needed, some need less. However, the conditions required for the best health we can experience, given the current limitations, are the same. We just need to figure out our own indvidual requirements through trial and error.


I also think that most people find it very difficult to break free of "fear-programming". The media and corporations try to instill our minds with fear so that we do the socially acceptable things or simply act and behave like they want us to, for their own gains. I don't know about others, but when I eat natural foods and live healthfully, I no longer accept the lies. I am able to think clearly, objectively and freely for the first time in my life. I question things that I would never have even thought of questioning when I was eating processed/cooked foods, when I was undersleeping every night and when I was getting very little sunshine. I don't think I'm the only one either, many people here have probably experienced similar feelings and thoughts.


Hope this helps


All the best




Proven diets that treat cancer and other diseases: The Hallelujah Diet, The Maker's Diet, The Gerson Therapy.
I think it is very rare for animals to get cancer in the wild, it's usually domestic animals or those in a zoo where humans give them their food (for example humans may cut up the fruits and take the seeds out when in the wild an animal would eat the whole seed which had vitamin B17 [which kills cancer]).
I'm sure even in the wild they are being affected by humans cutting down trees, pollution, depleting the soil, ect.



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