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Pain in lower chest after eating sweet fruit, semi-solved! Jay! :)

Hi people!

Some background: I have tried living on fruit several times. The last few times where I went all in, I began experiencing more and more severe pain in my lower chest/solar plexus after a sweet fruit meal. It was absolutely worse with dates, but after living a few months on fruit I became more and more sensitive until I couldn't really eat any sweet meal with sufficient calories.

The pain was this radiating [read: radiate like heat does], crippling pain, that appeared about 10 minutes after eating and lasted for anything between 10-20 minutes. The bigger the meal, the greater the pain. The longer I stayed on the diet, the greater the pain.
And I didn't just get pain, but I lost energy also. As I didn't get energy from the meals, but lost instead, my blood sugar seemed to fall temporarily while I had the pain.

I know people have had similar experiences with melons, calling it melon belly. And also other fruits.

For me it seemed to really be mostly about calories, especially those kinds of calories that dates have a lot of. Bananas have less of those kinds of calories I think, maybe they have a different ratio of the types of sugars it contain, since I had to eat significantly more bananas in calories to get the same degree of pain and loss of energy.
I know about fructose intolerance, but I don't think that is my problem. The symptoms doesn't match up.

So I tried living on fruit again, starting in late December last year. Fruits and greens to be precise.
And this issue appeared again.

This time I was sick and tired of it, and was determined to find a solution.
And I found one! :D
And this solution is the only that I have tried and that has had any effect on this issue of mine.
It completely eliminate the pain and loss of energy.

Okay, so, what I did was I tried taking a vegan enzyme complex with a date meal. It worked! Perfectly! Suddenly, for the first time since this issue appeared, I could eat as much dates and any other fruit as I want without worry, without pain. Wow :D
As long as I supplement with 1-2 capsules of the enzyme complex I have, depending on the size of the meal.

That was a huge relief, let me tell you.
I know this isn't the perfect or completely natural solution. But at least I found -something- that works.
And it helped me better understand the pain and the cause of the issue that I have struggled with so much.

So the issue of mine is not getting a high blood sugar, which was one of the things I previously thought could be it.
The problem appears within my stomach, that my body doesn't have enough digestive enzymes to break down the fruit sugars, before it passes the food to the small intestines.

That is why the problem appears so quickly, before the fruit has had a chance to be digested. Because my body is struggling to digest it.

And knowing this, I am sure the problem lies within my pancreas. Because that explains the placement of the pain perfectly, and also the description of the pain. If you look at an image of the body with the pancreas, and if you have similar pains as I have, you might see the same connection as I do.
Especially after I now know the problem has to do with digestive enzymes, which is the job of the pancreas (to provide the stomach with digestive enzymes during digestion).

I am not worried about being dependent on an enzyme complex for the rest of my life, because I think this diet will heal my pancreas within maybe a year or so. Someone I know seemed to have the same problem as me, and supplemented their diet with cooked potatoes etc for almost a year, and then they could eat as much fruit as they wanted suddenly.
And for me, to be able to stay hcrv, living on fresh fruit, instead of cooked potatoes, I think the healing process will be even quicker. Makes sense to me, but I don't know, because there are unknown variables at effect here.

But at least I am sure the problem appears during the initial stomach digestion phase, where my pancreas is getting inflamed or something, lacking the ability to provide the necessary digestive enzymes to break down the fruit.
A problem probably stemming from eating an unhealthy diet of fatty and salty cooked foods, in the first place.

And again, a temporary fix for me is an enzyme complex.
I mean, probably it is enough to just do the enzymes needed to break down the sugars. I haven't tried that yet, as I already had a nice enzyme complex at hand, which worked and made me very happy :D

The enzyme complex i am using now is the Maxi-Zyme Caps from Country Life. I am not saying this to advertise, I am saying this to provide people with the same means as I have to help themselves if they have the same issues as I. Meaning, so people can reproduce my results for themselves. Or to help them at least know they have a different issue (in case the enzymes doesn't work for them).
Just be sure that you take enough enzymes for the meal. For example, if I eat 1000 calories during one meal, which I can now (jay! :D), I need more extra enzymes than if I eat 300 calories. One capsule is enough even for dates, if the meal is around 3-400 calories. But a banana-smoothie of 1000 calories, I need 2-3 capsules. I stick with 2 now, and it seems to be ok.
Actually, the first big smoothie I tried, bananas, I used only 2 capsules, and I could notice a slight pain and a slight reduction of energy. But the day after, I did the same thing, and then I did not experience any negative effect from the meal. So it seems that the enzymatic support let my pancreas recharge.

I will keep at this level for a while, and then reduce the amount of enzymes I take, to see if my body needs less support. As I said, I expect that it will heal and that I will not need any support after a long enough time. And I can check, just by adjusting how much enzymes I supplement with.

I really hope this can help someone out there. As this was a huge problem for me, and now a huge relief! I am so happy to have found something that works! Something that lets me finally thrive on a HCRV diet :D

By the way. I haven't yet tried chromium picolinate. But I have taken mineral and vitamin complexes with other types of chromium, and less amounts than recommended for this, with no effect. So I am unsure about if chormium deficiency is the cause of my issue, but I will try chromium picolinate at higher dosages (400 mcg a day) nevertheless. If it helps, great!

Cheers!

Edit: Actually, the enzyme complex I mentioned above, I only used that twice before I had used up the two capsules left in the bottle. Not on a big meal, but on smaller meals. Then I bought an enzyme complex here in Norway, a different brand called SuperZym-1. This is the one that I have used on big meals of 1000 calories at 2 capsules pr meal. 
I am unsure about how strong the former enzyme complex is relative to the new Norwegian one. I have bought Maxi-Zyme again, and now I have tried it on a big meal. And it seems a bit weaker. So maybe I need to use three capsules of it, or more (I don't know), for the same effect. I think it depends on the strength of sugar specific enzymes that they contain.
It might be better to identify the actual enzyme that I need, as I expect there is just one or two that really is important for these sweet meals. I might update you guys here when I find out which enzyme I need.

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Hi , 

I had ( sometimes have ) the same painfull stomach aches you described. This topic helped me a lot. Because I thought I was the only one suffering from this. I really had to lay down and wait until the pain was over before I even could move. 

It helped me to eat smaller portions and wait a bit until I was sure that my stomach was ok. And before my meals I drink a lot , that seems to help a lot too. Also eating slower worked for me. 

But day by day the pain gets less and I can eat more without being in fear for the upcoming 5minutes or so. 

But I get why you take the enzymes , because that kind of pain is horrible. It almost had me stopped eating fruits. 

What do you think is wrong with our pancreases than ? 

Greets from belgium

Kathleen

Hi Kathleen :)


I get that, it has felt a little lonesome experiencing this challenge for me too, since so few is really talking about it.
I've also had to lay down too if I ate too much.

That is great, that you get better day by day! And that you are able to manage it by adjusting your eating habit.
Eating slower and less at a time, helps me a little too. 

I can understand it almost stopping you from eating fruit, because this pain can be crippling. So I actually stopped a couple of years ago, after half a year on fruit. Since it only grew worse and worse, to the point where even small meals triggered it. 

Hm, what is wrong with our pancreas. Good question. That is currently in my 'don't know yet' pile. It would be great to learn, I think. 

I know I do not have this pain when I eat high caloric meals from cooked food, whether it is high in carbohydrates or there is a mix with fats and carbs. I only experience this reaction when I live on a HCRV diet, getting my calories from fresh fruit. And I am the most sensitive to dates. That should narrow down the possible causes a bit. It seems to be an issue about breaking down a certain, or certain sugars, while other sugars less so. Since dates have a different ratio of kinds of sugars than bananas. But still, they all have the same sugars, I believe. And so the reaction appears with any fruit, as long as there are enough calories in the meal.

I am guessing it is something about the carbohydrate enzymes, that my pancreas is not producing enough of, for some reason. Maybe it is in a bad shape, maybe my body don't have enough of the needed minerals to use the sugar-oriented enzymes.
It would be interesting and fun to find out this.

Hi Svein , 

I've experienced the pain again. Much less than in the beginning but still. I took the enzyme and it did work ! 

thanks for that. I also have it with bananas . And did u figure it out already ? ;)

grts 

Kathleen

Ah! That is joyful to hear, and valuable for me to know someone else have tried and gotten same results from. Very cool, thanks for reporting in :)

Oh my, I wish I had figured it out. So far I am still just managing this, which is good of course. Better than not managing it. But I have not cured it. The only reliable actions so far are the enzymes and not eating too much and too often. Either work, but only one provide me with enough food. The first one. Well, and also eating some cooked to supplement, works. Nothing else seems to give reliable results.

I still think this goes back to my body's inability to break down the raw sugars in the stomach. You know, before I began eating fruit as a diet, my body never needed to digest such huge amounts of raw sugars for energy. Never. So it is a big contrast to what it is used to using for energy. Completely different proportions of energy sources, with fruit it is almost only carbs. And they are in very simple sugar forms. But, how to heal this quickly? I would love to hear peoples suggestions on that one. What is a targeted way to address this, permanently?

In the mean time, I am eating my greens, my cooked potatoes and my sweet fruit with enzymes.

I am glad you checked in :) Hope to hear more from you Kathleen.

I read something interesting, that might shed some light on what is wrong with our pancreas:

When the pancreas is hyperstimulated (alcohol or excessive eating) or when the bile-pancreatic duct is obstructed (gall stones), it increases pancreatic duct pressure and activates the enzyme trypsin. When intracellular protective mechanisms to prevent trypsinogen and trypsin activation are overwhelmed, it leads to activation within the pancreas, auto-digestion of the pancreatic gland and resulting inflammation. This can result in severe pain common to acute pancreatitis and chronic symptoms associated with chronic pancreatitis.

Quote is taken from here: http://www.naturalnews.com/042349_pancreatitis_natural_treatments_d...

The article talks about pancreatitis, which is an inflammation of the pancreas. It says that this happens when digestive enzymes become activated within the pancreas itself and begin digesting the pancreas. Which, as the quote says, happen if the pancreas is hyperstimulated or that its ducts are obstructed (so the pancreatic juice can't go where is should).

Some of the symptoms of pancreatisis is the same as I have had, which is this burning pain in the lower chest and loss of energy. I haven't had nausea though, maybe because of the lack of fats? Idk.

When gallstones get large, they obstruct the pancreatic duct from effectively emptying their enzymes into the small intestine.

When intracellular protective mechanisms to prevent trypsinogen and trypsin activation are overwhelmed, it leads to activation within the pancreas, auto-digestion of the pancreatic gland and resulting inflammation.

So, maybe in our case we have gall stones, partially blocking the passage in the pancreas. And, I guess the pancreas might be highly stimulated during a sweet fruit meal. At least until maybe the body gets to adapt to a diet high in sugars, compared to what it is used to.
Those things together pose a challenge.
And I guess staying on a clean diet of fruits and or high carb cooked vegan low in salts, eventually dissolves the gall stones.

But all of this is just guesswork on my part. It sounds plausible and tangible to me though.

In the same article, it says:

The best action steps to prevent pancreatitis flare-ups are to follow an anti-inflammatory nutrition plan that is free of sugars, grains, high fruit consumption and processed foods of any kind. Meals should focus on good fat sources, antioxidants, clean proteins, fiber and fermented foods.

Which is a little funny. But why are carbohydrates more taxing on the pancreas, than fats and proteins? Is it just because our bodies are used to fats and proteins, from our sad diets? And that on a fruit diet, the pancreas will gradually reconfigure itself to be stronger with carbs? I don't know. 
But I do know that I don't experience any of this pain if I eat big meals of cooked food, rich in carbohydrates or not. Only on a raw diet rich in carbohydrates.

The first time I experienced this pain, I lived on fruit for 3 months before it began happening. Now it appears in a much shorter time. I don't know it if is because my body is cleaner, so it absorbs the fruit quicker, or if it is that my pancreas is tired..

>And I guess staying on a clean diet of fruits and or high carb cooked vegan low in salts, eventually dissolves the gall stones.

I think so.  My grandfather dissolved his gall stones and healed his infected gall bladder by doing just eight days of organic celery, carrot, beet juice.  This was confirmed by a medical doctor .

Hm, I see. Then that can't be my issue, since I've experienced my problem being on a fruit diet for much longer than 8 days. 

Thanks for the input, it is good to being able to compare with others experiences like that. And it is interesting to read. 

By the way, cool grandfather you've got, taking care of his health that way ;)

Preliminary testing seems to show that if I mix eating salad greens (tested with spinach) simultaneously with the dates, making sure when ever I feel this sort of resistance towards eating more dates I eat spinach until that resistance goes away (usually meant a 2-4 leaves per 1-2 mazafati date), I do not get pain either.

Yes, I get this sort of resistance towards eating the dates after just having eaten a few. But, as said, I have noticed I can remove the resistance if I alternatively eat salad greens and dates. The greens gives me back my appetite for the sweet and prevent the pain. Go figures.

It seems to be only when I keep eating regardless of my body telling me 'don't eat more', by giving me this temporary aversion, that I get the pain. The body is smart :) But, the dilemma has been that if I don't eat regardless of that signal, I would starve myself or having to go back to cooked food, right, that is why I have done it.

Ok. Good to have multiple solutions. And good to have extra motivation to eat the greens :D

   I may have the same problem also. I didn't suspect until I tried vegetarian and experienced an easy little to no detox transition. This entire time for over four years I've been trying to add more fruit to my diet until I was 100% raw. Arggh. I do get pain and gas anywhere from my middle chest area, to my lower intestine.

    I've stopped eating all raw foods and slowly but surely the pain and gas is diminishing. I am also sleeping much better. I had to walk around constantly to keep out the gas. Then, I wouldn't sleep much. Now I seem to be relatively pain free and sleeping better. Note, cooked seems no problem. I'll continue eating no raw foods for a while and then try a green smoothie.

     I heard high speed blenders like Vitamix can break apart cellulose. I'm pretty sure its the cellulose we can't digest. No surprise that I can't digest the cellulose since I came sick, weak, and desperate to the raw diet. Do you think we both have the same problem?

Hi RawVeganGamer.

I'm sorry about your troubles.

Nah, it doesn't at all sound like the same issue, did you read my whole O.P? I am a little surprised that you wonder if our cases are the same, hehe. But that is cool, no worries. Your case is interesting nevertheless. How would you describe your pain further?
The reasons I think our issue is different is that your pain is located differently, and seems to be originating from a different place. And also, you are having significant gas problems, it seems to be your main issue, which is not something I experience at all in regards to this issue. Also, I have not had any problems with sleeping because of this. Your problems seems to appear in your gut, your intestines. My, on the other hand, in my stomach, the part before the smaller intestines. My issue is with the sugars, yours seems to be the fiber. My pain is located directly at the solar plexus area, and no other place, though it is radiating. Your pain sees to be from the gas in your gut, located generally lower and in more places. Your pancreas doesn't seem to play a role here, at least not directly, as it seems to be in my case. At least not in the same way. Your pain seems to appear continuously after eating, for a long time, mine appears after about 10 minutes and stops after about 10 minutes.
Do you agree our cases seems different? But that is ok, I find yours interesting and would like to help you find a solution so you can be happy with your diet.

I've not heard about this thing with cellulose before. Hm. 
There is so much to explore here. Have you tried supplementing with good probiotics when eating raw? To help the gut bacteria break down stuff. It seems to be your problem is related to your gut bacteria. But maybe it would also help actually trying an enzyme complex with the meal, it would be interesting to know if that helps, even if that is not a permanent solution you want to have. And probiotics, they live on fiber, and if you have taken e.g antibiotics before, or I don't know, maybe the probiotic population is less than optimal. So it could help. I don't know.

What kind of raw food did you eat? Please name the range of stuff that you ate most, and how much of each.

No, our bodies doesn't digest cellulose, I think, but our gut bacteria does. They eat fiber, for their own metabolism, not ours. We digest sugars, carbohydrates.

And yes, there are generally much more fibers on a raw food diet, than a cooked. In my opinion. Because even if eating the same foods, the heat during the cooking helps break down the fibers etc. Is my opinion.

All of this is just my humble opinion. I am just writing this for fun. In no way am I giving any medical advice or anything of that sort. I take no responsibility for other peoples health, only my own.

You say, no surprise you can't digest cellulose since you came sick, weak and desperate to the raw diet. Would you like to elaborate on what you mean? But really, breaking down fiber is a matter of gut bacteria. So, if you were sick and weak, and had poor gut bacteria, then maybe it makes sense. But maybe your issue is not any of this. I don't know. I am just helping you think on this, if you want.

By the way. Maybe you can start a new thread with your issue. And then we can talk there. It is more tidy I think :)

      I'm not sure if its the sugars or the cellulose. I tried a fruit smoothie and received the same symptoms as if I ate the fruit whole. I suspect we both have the same triggers, but different symptoms. You state dates are the main trigger for you. I think when I'm feeling brave I'll try a few dates to see if they trigger my reaction.

       Dates stuck out since this last batch of gas was particularly bad, and I just had dates which I haven't had in over a year. How many dates is the minimum to trigger your symptoms? I did make my own thread with gas. Here's the thread below:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/chronic-painful-gas-and-a...

      I have a guess. I was looking up gas and raw food. Found that a candida overgrowth can be one of the causes. I then, searched on 30bananasaday and found this thread and video. According to Dr. Graham candida is a caused by too much fat. Simply follow a 80/10/10 diet of carbs/fats/protein respectively and your body should be good.

      I ask what is your calories from fat? I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, but summer of 2014 I decided to incorporate as many vegan foods as possible. Since french fries were often the only vegan choice at restaurants I went on a french fry and raw fruit diet. I'm thinking this may be the problem. I don't know if I helped you, but you helped me. Thanks.

   From the links below you can see french fries are about 40-50% calories from fat which is way too high.

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/if-candida-is-a-fat-issue

http://www.chick-fil-a.com/Food/Menu-Detail/ChickfilA-Waffle-Potato...

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fast-foods-generic/8054/2

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