this is dr greger's new site:
he has many excerpts from his videos here listing the peer reviewed papers that inspired them. this can be a very fine resource for anyone who wants to see what the science research has to say about various topics.
(note: we may not agree with some of the findings for various reasons, but this resource is nevertheless very useful due to the variety of topics and greger's fine and delightful presentation.)
also uploaded is the biblio for the 3700+ articles and resources that have gone (so far) into making his dvds and the site. more bibs will follow as they are prepared. the bibs were produced using Pere Constans' excellent open source (gpl3 licensed) cb2bib program.
UPDATE 2013-07-15: greger's site could use some help with your donations to pay for web expenses. you can make your contributions here.
this week's update from www.nutritionfacts.org
will introduce each posting.
Thanks, I have bookmarked this for future use at least as a reference.
am curious as to which findings you do not agree with
when i wrote "we", i was referring primarily to this forum generally since greger is not a rawfood promoter.
i have a few items that i'm dubious about (having gone through the entire series) such as:
msg isn't harmful
coffee is ok
don't drink water drink tea
rawfoodists must take b12 supplements
(these are all statements that came about in various presentations over the years and i'm presenting them out of context, so they aren't quite as bad as they look above).
other than some minor issues, i have great admiration for greger and what he is contributing. his efforts make much of the scientific research accessible to the general population - some of it is on 30bad btw in various threads, but these two items may be of special interest:
greger's nutritional bibliography (in rough form - new improved version being worked on)
i also agree with you about the "sharp and smooth" - one would not want to go against him in a debate without being really, really, really well-prepared! ;)
btw, i like all your interesting status posts especially:
Evolve! The monkeys are catching up!
The above invites me to question you on a topic which has bothered me awhile: WHY is B12 so heavily recommended here as THE essential supp, and so many here taking it as standard, when the raw diet is meant to be sufficient?
I started taking it about 6mths back but am coming to the end of my pills and thinking of seeing how I go without...I noticed no difference when I started but was much newer to the diet.
The above invites me to question you on a topic which has bothered me awhile: WHY is B12 so heavily recommended here as THE essential supp
i can give you my personal opinions on this which should not be taken as authoritative since it is purely based on my experiences.
i'm not sure anyone really understands the b12 thing that well. when we went vegan more than 2 decades ago we were told to take shots - we didn't. we were told that our supply would run out in 7 years. a few years later the same doctor was saying the supply should last 14 yrs. then somewhere in 2000 it became around 20 yrs and last i heard it was something like 30 yrs. so we're still waiting around. :D
there are 'studies' showing the disastrous consequences of b12 deficiency. however, upon closer examination of these, i've found that most aren't studies, but are casestudies - specifically done on individuals and usually on vegans. it is incorrect to pass off a casestudy as a study and draw generalized conclusions using it.
the most recent nutritional vol produces by greger does have an actual study done on vegans which found that 50% were close to borderline and so that should be taken with some seriousness, but i haven't actually read it (i do have it on my computer though) to see what the details are and whether it was 'appropriately' constructed and interpreted.
it seems that the real issue with b12 is not so much what you get or your gut produces, but what you are able to assimilate (the borg have certainly demonstrated the importance of this concept!). there are people who may have weakened abilities to assimilate and quite possibly supplements may help them. if you've read through dr's b12 posts, you'll see that he seems to be in that category due to various reasons and his supplementation certainly seems to be of benefit to him.
the b12 'promotion' you see here is not unusual in veg circles though admittedly some of it is for 'political security'. for instance, mcdougall in his dvds says don't worry about b12 and certainly don't think you need stuff from the corpse industries to get enough of it, but he also officially states that they recommend supplementation and explains this stance with not wanting a single vegan to ever experience the deficiency. b12 deficiency has, after all become a nutritional football that some people, veg and non-veg, like to kick around.
so personally we are not too concerned after all these years (my son, btw, is a lifelong vegan). we've occasionally had fortified b12 foods in the past - didn't notice a thing. about a month ago, i tried some sublingual pills as an experiment - nothing again.
in any case, i don't think b12 supplements hurt and possibly for some they may be quite helpful (i think there are certain supplements and vitamins that do work to a considerable extent). for us, though, these seem to have no effect whatsoever.
doesn't the B12 fortified food your son had and your sublingual B12 kind of invalidate the long-term "experiment" of deficiency?
i'm not sure i quite understand the question given the context since there has been no "experiment". we just haven't followed any b12 supplementation program over the years.
therefore, i don't think there are grounds for any invalidation considering the fortified food was just some
1. blue green algae in the mid 90s - my wife thought the b12 supplementation was a good idea. later we found out that the bga really wasn't the miracle b12 source it was 'advertized' to be. :D
2. nutritional yeast (red star) back in the late 90's
3. soya milk and not much of it over the years. my son doesn't like soya milk so he only had a bit of it when he was quite young (may be around 10 years ago).
i only tried the sublingual b12 recently, so i don't think it saved me. :D
Thankyou Prad for your thoughts, it's so good for us beginners to have the knowledge and advice of longtermers like yourself.
You confirm what I suspected, that absorbtion and utilisation of B12 is a common weakness in our species, at least at the present time; we can only speculate about mineral-deficient soils cp to ancient society.
I will check again at my next blood test, tho I question the accuracy of those sought thro mainstream drs. I kind of mentally argue with myself over all this nutritional analysing seeming very self-obsessed; before 30bad I'd never been to a dr in over 30yrs, always battled with chronic ill-health alone. but I've also always sought improvement, that's what led me here.
we can only speculate about mineral-deficient soils cp to ancient society.
yes i've heard this too when we looked into reasons for supplementation back in the early 90s.
This is just my personal anecdote and no advice or firm theory.
After 5 years without meat and dairy I tested my B12 some months ago.
I haven't worried about it because according to my beliefs more of the 30+ years vegans that did not supplement would have had problems if we really needed supplements, especially high raw vegans.
So I tested because I became sick for a while due to other things (bronchitis, pneumonia and candida during a very stressed, lonely and still sitting period breathing gasoline and mold and eating too much fat).
I did many tests and I just wanted to make sure that I was fine on all ends so i did B12 and folate too as well as hemoglobin.
So my hemoglobin and folate turned out very good, no problem at all.
My B12 was not under the limit were you should do something but "a little low". So I asked the doctor; "If my B12 would get lower, what would be the dangerous thing with that, what would the problem be that they are warning of?"
She said that it is that the hemoglobin then becomes low.
So I asked her; "Is there no other symptoms, like problems with organs and this or that I have heard about?
She said that there was nothing that didn't origin in the low hemoglobin.
So then I asked; "Given that you say that my hemoglobin is on the level where you would like an elite athlete to be, but my B12 is on the border to low, could it possibly be that science is mistaking about the correlation between the two and that hemoglobin actually becomes low from unhealthy eating with completely other lacks of nutrients than b12 or from eating too many harmful foods, but the people in the science research has happened to be low on both since harmful eating most likely will make all values worse and since raw vegan studies on B12 has probably never been done, so one has never really done studies on very healthy vegans?
She said that according to what she knows that could be a possibility.
I am not saying that this is the case, but I am just throwing it out there that these mistakes can happen if some industry has something to gain from it, and sometimes even when noone has, mistakes just happen and they can be embarrassing to correct later and science has been shown to be reluctant to see and correct old mistakes many times until they "have to" because everyone knows that it is a "mistake".
greetings david! and a belated welcome to 30bad!
thank you for the above post.
my B12 is on the border to low, could it possibly be that science is mistaking about the correlation between the two
your doctor's response was quite interesting and honest, imho. levels are based on the avg pop usually. vegans may have lower b12 levels (dr greger has a good video on this), but one does have to wonder how valid the threshold is since it is likely based on SAD. vegans also have lower 'levels' of atheroma, cancer, osteoporosis etc etc.
in any case, b12 supplementation doesn't do any harm according to the scientific evidence to date and 30bad certainly endorses it. so if you have any doubts at all, do it:
David, the reason why your Hb is ok, and b12 is low, is that b12 is not directily required for Hb production, it is required to regenerated folic acid(folate), which then used in the process of Hb production. If you get a lot of folate/folic acid, from diet, so that folate regeneration process is not needed, hence yr Hb is fine. It is also known that folic acid supplementation can mask B12 deficiency.
B12 required for myelin sheeth synthesis(that covers the nerves), and prolonged b12 deficiency can cause nerve degeneration, and symptoms appears when it get sto advanced stages, hence if yr b12 is low, worth taking some supplements.