30 Bananas a Day!

one of the problems animal rights and vegetarian (ar/veg) activists face is demonstrating the correctness of their stance amid a barrage of tactics hurled at them by those who support the imprisonment, exploitation, abuse and murder of non-human animals.

they know there is something wrong in what their opponents hurl at them, but they can't always quite get their finger on it. the attack doesn't seem right, but they find it difficult to respond to it sometimes.

almost all attacks on the ar/veg position consists of nothing more than logical fallacies. once these are recognized, the responses can be made with confidence.

the fallacy project attempts to gather together and demonstrate what many of these argumentative pieces of trash really are and you can help!!

go here first to take a quick look:
Fallacy Project

you'll see a long list of fallacies in the TOC.

 

click on Ad hoc or Ad hominem and you'll see each of these has:

  • alternative names for the fallacy
  • an orientation explaining what the fallacy is with a brief example
  • the logical form of the fallacy

then follows a series of actual examples with commentary.

this is where you can really help out.

if you can provide examples of your encounters on or off the net, we can put these into the project in appropriate places. if you want to provide commentary explaining why the thing is a fallacy, go right ahead.

the items are not complete right now and everything is in rough form. assistance with writing is appreciated.

 

with your help, we think we'll be able to provide an extremely useful resource for activists.
we'll even put your name in the acknowledgements section!!

my thanks to nickeyp who has worked with me on this project for several days now and will help to monitor the progress made in this thread.

 

so please post about any 'interesting' discussions you've had regarding ar/veg issues which can be used for this project. if you don't have any, you can go through old threads here or elsewhere and find some!

in friendship,
prad

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ad hoc

check here first:

http://yourcybercourt.info/fallacies/list.html#sec-1

then contribute any experiences which match this fallacy by replying to this post.

(you'll see one contribution already there)

in friendship,

prad

ad hominem

check here first:

http://yourcybercourt.info/fallacies/list.html#sec-2

then contribute any experiences which match this fallacy by replying to this post.

(you'll see two contributions already there so far)

in friendship,

prad

Sure that's great prad...

excellent to see you've posted links now to the webpage here ...

let's roll everybody!

nick

it's not quite as you say, rz.

there are several reasons why it is important to understand lf:

 

  • you need to be working with valid arguments and know when you're being hit with an invalid one
  • many people do present good sounding anti-vegan arguments that convince people who don't want to think further
  • much of the battle is going to take place in philosophical circles, so those of us who want to get the foundations right, need to look at building a base there
  • much of the battle is going to be won in the legal arena and you really need to know how to tear apart the bad presentations and replace them with good ones

 

i think your holistic approach is just fine and will be effective in some areas, but there are places where a different approach may be necessary. interestingly enough, there are some very experienced ar activists (eg kel on 30badigos) who think speciesism is a distraction to the cause. he even shows you why.

 

best to have a variety of weaponry to match the inevitable diversity of the enemy.

 

in friendship,

prad

i don't understand, rz - what protein issue are you referring to and what slippery slope.

edit: oh i see it now. you don't have to cry fallacy at every turn. that's not really a slippery slope for instance - it's just contrary to fact (since protein deficiency has nothing to do with vegan - even b12 has nothing to do with being vegan), so it should be dealt with as such.

 

logical fallacy chains shouldn't go on and on. sometimes, more than one fallacy applies and sometimes what is a fallacy in one situation isn't in another. i'm planning on having these explained.

 

i don't think you are traumatized and i do respect your sincerity about the matter.

this is only one of many projects that are underway and i think arming people with good tactics on forums is good for not only the cause but also for themselves. they should understand that they speak from a very solid foundation.

 

the other thing to remember is discussions that go on and on may make one think one is spinning one's wheels because the other party keeps dancing around and not acknowledging the faultiness of the position, but there are always others watching and thinking and learning. so you may actually win much more than it appears.

 

in friendship,

prad

you mean the enemies can ration and reason ????

yes but their reason is admittedly rationed. ;)

in fiendship,

prad

I JUST had a fallacy project in my English class, where we had to be a lawyer/salesman and tell lies to the class.

I was a salesman, selling a weight loss product. You know I got a good number of lies from that! ;)

hey that's great alexandra! and you're a borg too i see!!

so jump right in on the ad hoc or ad hominem if you have some examples we can use.

or if you have any you can think of in other areas, i'd be interested in hearing about them.

in friendship,

prad

I'll help with writing if you want, I'm familiar with logical fallacies. I don't have any examples to use. Let me know what you need and I'll get started tomorrow (getting late/dark here)

that's wonderful ss! many thanks.

so here's what you can start with since you are familiar with this already:

 

1. look at those fallacies you are most knowledgeable about

2. see if the orientations are done sufficiently well

3. see if the data/lore exchange is sufficiently effective

4. if you can think of an illustrative example, write it up

 

just post your findings here and i'll take it from there.

 

look forward to working with you.

 

in friendship,

prad

cool prad, I am working on it as well :o)

nickeyp

Data: Vegan is the nutritionally intelligent, environmentally sustainable and ethically correct diet to follow.
Lore: Data you're just an incompetent android who doesn't know anything so you're wrong!!!!
Data: While you are doing a fine job attacking me personally, you have done nothing to attack my argument.

Data hasn't rebuked the idea of lore telling data he is wrong. It is also 'poisoning the well' because no matter what data says, he has been 'cursed' with appearing wrong...

or is that just pedantic?

I have no better way of putting it though...

nick

unless data says  'lore is wrong' which makes data appear wrong, and then lore is right...

it's the same with this

the next statement is wrong

the last statement is wrong

will everyone be able to understand the complexity of language which you write with?

ok good one nick!

 

Data hasn't rebuked the idea of lore telling data he is wrong. It is also 'poisoning the well' because no matter what data says, he has been 'cursed' with appearing wrong...

or is that just pedantic?


no this is right on though data doesn't have to tell lore he is wrong - just demonstrate it by referring to the facts for instance. however, i like how you used the 'curse'! i've included it on the site in the appropriate section:

http://yourcybercourt.info/fallacies/list.html#sec-5

 

the next statement is wrong

the last statement is wrong

will everyone be able to understand the complexity of language which you write with?

don't know, but then our goal here isn't everyone necessarily, though most people will understand much of it i think. the self-referential pair of course is a tricky one - hofstader wrote 3 books on the topic:

godel, escher, bach: the eternal braid

metamagical themas

the mind's eye

 

and though it is fun stuff, it is definitely not easy reading!

 

in friendship,

prad

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