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It is hard to believe that we have a hard time putting this one to rest. Bart your info makes sense, do you have any links that show it easily breaks down into sodium and chloride?. I found one below but if you have others feel free to add.
I tend to agree with that it is a balance that even to much natural sodium would cause the same reaction in the bodies especiallly people that are low sodium. I think in general some 811ers are to low in sodium due to lower minerals in the soil and consuming excess water through drinking. I don't think most are that far off (because I agree with Jonas are needs are not that high) but I think most are abit to low and that is why alot look gaunt and dehyrated. My brother went 811 and he felt skinny and his face look parched in 6 days going back to mcdougall he regained his body tone by adding back salt. Now this is superficial it is not good if you look better but feel worst. The question is by bumping the sodium up a little higher every day will you look better and feel better. People love to make broad statements, that all people who do 811 are okay for everything, well we should know better, there are some low in chromium, iodine, etc and yes possibly sodium to be optimal. The problem is that when you go 811 your going to feel so much better then before, so you have the sense that all is perfect. More experience healthy people know there are always levels and that going 811 you feel better but does not mean everything is optimal (though I agree for most it is more then enough but not for all)
I love celery I eat it all the time, is there a reason behind that? I believe so my body is craving sodium on most days. Why do I sometimes crave salty things even after being 811 for years and have been sodium free for years??
Jonas well written article and there is alot of things you said that are true but I am not sure that it makes sense that sodium chloride is not broken down at least to some degree and can be used by the body. If it could not be used why runners low in sodium use salt tablets to avoid hyponatremia? how can you explain this? Michael Arnstein suffered from this after a race nearly died they gave him a saline solution and he got better. If it was as bad as every one says it would of killed him :).
One test we can try to see if take a lot of natural sodium and see if it bloats and gives adverse reactions to someone doing a very low sodium diet. I agree Jonas it should be low vs potassium but maybe some are to low due to less minerals in our food as well as adding extra water that we drink.
What about making celery salt and consuming say 3000 mg of sodium for a day or 2 to see how the body reacts (do we know what to expect when it is natural sodium). I guess a quick way is to take some Braggs liquid amino (just for the purpose of this experiment which it is just natural sodium).
Still not sure if salt is okay but I do feel like most 811ers are on the low side not dangerously but not optimal either. In nature we would not be chugging water down and the fruit and veg would contain more sodium. Remember they make the plant grow with only 3 things (bloody idiots it should be all minerals), nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium (no sodium to balance).
Check this link http://chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/genchem/sstutorial/Text7/Tx75/tx75.html
B. Water Solutions of Ionic Compounds When an ionic compound dissolves in water, the solution contains ions rather than neutral particles. For example, when sodium chloride, NaCl, dissolves in water, the solution contains sodium ions (Na+) and chloride ions (Cl-), rather than neutral units of NaCl.
Bart 1, natural hygiene so far 0
You dont need to add it to your food. If you want to, use it sparingly.
If you chose to life a sedentary lifestyle, salt will make you puffier. If you are active in the outdoors then the salt retention will be limited to non existent longterm.
The longest period Ive done NO salt or seaweed was november 2007 to Feb 2010. Never had any issues. I don't sprinkle salt on my food but I do use various vegan condiments that do contain salt in them. I use them sparingly. Easy.
I've done long periods of time with no table salt at all, and felt fine. I think that for some people, it's not necessary. But I also think that there's a lot of silly outdated natural hygiene thinking going on out there saying that salt is a poison REGARDLESS OF QUANTITY, and that it's unusable by the body because it's a rock, ect... Those claims are ridiculous. Salt, when dissolved in water splits into sodium and chloride ions, both of which are usable, and totally necessary in the body. Here, as with many other "poisons", the dosage makes the poison. I went into a bit more detail about this in this thread. Whether we can get enough of these nutrients without consuming table salt has been covered well elsewhere, but one thing is a fact. Table salt, like many other substances only has negative effects if ingested in excess, and intrinsically, without context, is not a poison, and is usable by the body. I wrote about this in more detail here.
first - know the difference between sodium & sodium chloride (table salt)
sodium is good - sodium chloride very bad
SALT Sorting the Hype From The Science by Jonas Sunshine Callewaert
The thing is if your not eating a lot of celery which is a good source of sodium (which is not always the case) I wonder if some people are getting enough somedays especially if your drinking a lot of water that needs a certain amount of sodium to be used in the body.
From the water cure "Plain water will wash out any extra salt held by the body. But drinking plain water and not taking enough salt will pull the salt out of the cells, causing an imbalance. This imbalance is what causes diseases. The body needs water and salt to stay healthy." I agree it is enough sodium not salt but if were drinking extra water with no added sodium are we boderline on the low side
I do feel like I don't get enough sodium sometimes even though I eat a lot of celery because out of all the foods I tend to crave (which I don't tend to crave much, Is foods that are high in salt, like soups etc). Sometimes i have gone and ate those food live in a household not 811. Then I have no feeling for it all. In general I don't crave salt but sometimes i do so I think I tend to be boderline. Endshell thanks for the video on the celery powder. I will give that a try and take a bit higher amount of that celery powder just to see if there are differences, maybe I will add it to the water I drink to help balance. I really think we don't need that much sodium but I wonder sometimes especially drinking a lot of water without getting extra sodium that we tend to be on the low side at times. I also wonder is this why some people look to gaunt because they are not retaining enough water?
If I decide to eat anything with salt then it is only a couple of evening meals a week. When I do, I make sure I double my water intake before bedtime.
Also if you want to know 30BaD's stance on salt, read here:
The next list includes condiments that sometimes cause issues in many people. We encourage you to eliminate them for 30 days and then try them again to see how they work for you. If they do then by all means keep eating them.
Fruits and tender greens work for EVERYONE but the following condiments don't. Thats why we don't promote them as essential but do understand they can be used by many people if it helps them eat a high carb vegan lifestyle. Some people find small amounts of these vegan condiments not an issue. You will have to decide for yourself. :)
PS: The less sport you are doing, the more 'pure' you will find your diet has to be as you are not pumping your lymphatic system around as much as if you were active. Someone who lives an active lifestyle won't notice sodium retention as much as someone who chooses to be sedentary all day. - Durianrider
* All fermented products such as pickles, sauerkraut, kefir, kombucha, etc. (why?)* Vinegar of any description (why?)* Oils (why?, why? & why?)* Garlic (why?)* Onion (with the exception of scallions/green onions or occasional mild sweet red onions) (why? & why?)* Salt of any origin (why?) (why?) (why)* Chili pepper products (why? [scroll down to section 2.2])* Seaweed of any kind (nori, kelp and kelp noodles, arame, dulse, irish moss, algae etc.) (why?, why? )* Spirulina (pond scum) (why?, why? & (why?)* Nama Shoyu/tamari/Bragg's liquid aminos/Raw Coconut Aminos (why Braggs?) (why Raw Coconut Aminos?)* Psyllium husk (scratches the delicate lining of the digestive track)* Agave (why? & why?)* Nutritional yeast (why?)* Excessive use of nuts/seeds, badly combined fruits & fat combo's that lead to health challenges* Gourmet raw dishes that we feel are not congruent with the low fat raw vegan lifestyle
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