good one, robert!
some really interesting ideas here i find.
All mammals have faunivorous ancestors if you trace their lineage back far enough... even cows, who have a carnivore relative in their family tree more recently than primates do.
i didn't know that cows had a carnivore relative! however, it shouldn't be surprising about the faunivore ancestry because nature would likely require some sort of control mechanism. however, i'm sure the crapaleo argument will go back even beyond the synapsids right to the amoeba to argue that there lies our ancestry and therefore we should eat corpse. :D
CPM, you seem to be misunderstanding the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis. All it states is that an increase in "high-quality" foods eased an energy constraint on hominid encephalization. While it does postulate meat as the most likely source, it doesn't require the source to have been meat.
this of course has been established by a variety of sources and there are several threads on 30bad which discuss the matter like this one: http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/a-discussion-with-some-meat
it's pretty interesting stuff which singles out a rather inescapable key point:
"In short, the reason humans have canine teeth is that our ancestors had them. It's that basic."
however, despite the evidence, i still will maintain whenever the ferocious canine is pathetically brandished as evidence that humans are carnivorous hunters (some can't just restrain themselves), that these teeth do come in handy for ripping open the cellophane that wraps the bargain corpse piece, hunted down in the supermarket.
i particularly like this one: the ability to digest meat is an accidental consequence of pre-human frugivorous ancestry, not an adaptation towards or resulting from meat-eating in and of itself. In fact, it's not really an adaptation at all, just an inheritance we found a new way to exploit when times got tough in the Ice Age. It's a constraint on our evolution, not the engine of it.
cpm seems like a nice enough fellow though i think he's been subjected to too many rumors about 30bad: "Thanks for coming outside of the protective cocoon."
he should look around and see how many butterflies there really are ... or if one has some familiarity with japanese sci-fi, mothras would understandably be more apropos. ;)
he ends with peculiar questions though.
there is a wealth of diversity within 30bad with people possessing high levels of education, expertise and experience. when these three entities merge, it is likely there will be variances in detail due to the particular empirical evidence accumulated by each individual. however, there won't be disagreements on the essentials.
someone in amsterdam may measure the acceleration due to gravity as being 9.813 m/s2, while someone in bangkok would find it to be 9.783 m/s2, but both despite their 'disagreement' would likely realize it ain't too smart to jump out the window of a second story building. :D
the conclusions reached through the evidence say the same thing and are that much stronger when they have support from multiple fields of knowledge.
Help in maintaining the Wikipedia "China Study" page, right now under heavy attack by professional lobby groups, among other disguised as "Denise Minger" posting anti "China Study" propaganda! It is URGENT! They basically plan to explode the entire article! I know this type of attacks as a long term Wikipedia editor!
I am sorry if this request lands in the wrong thread, but please alert all vegan Wikipedia editors and admins of this (if you know any)! "Denise Minger" is very likely a large scale underground defamation campaign against Dr.Campbell! No matter if she is a real person or not, this is no "private blogger". I wrote already to Dr.Campbell himself, I hope there will be more awareness of the case. But what is essential is urgent protection and following up on the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study
Wikipedia is one of THE 10 most visited pages WORLDWIDE. Each day thousands of people basically read "Dr.Campbell is a quack and was demoted by a fellow scientist" (=Ms Minger, who is again and again showed in the position of somebody with scientific background; any adds about her "private fun blogger without deeper education" status get instantly removed). I have seen too many real large scale defamation campaigns (I edit the Wikipedia almost since the beginning, and mostly anonymously after some large scale clashes with exactly such professional underground attackers).
I have read many very professional and scientific comments in this group, and I understand that I am far below the educational level of many people here, but I have enough experience as Wikipedia editor to tell apart when something is going wrong, and going wrong fast.
It seems that this "Denise Minger" is involving people in long scientific discussions - which the average layman is unable to understand at all - and ultimately the true attackers proceed on with their real task, while basically stealing your time and strength. It is good that there are so many knowledgeable people who can debunk that horrid nonsense she/they is/are spreading, but the average layman will be unable to tell anything apart. I have seen the graphs she posted in one of her recent articles, they look like "Dr.Campbell did not tell the truth and hid important data", all those graphs showing "no correlation between food and cancer" and "some people get cancer and some do not, and some of them eat meat and other eat no meat". I have no means to tell where she got that from and if this is something from the data or if she or somebody else made this all up and what the hell.
But the average simple people without scientific background will see only that, and that will be all what they understand. The online masses are not very knowledgeable, but they do have a large impact if many of them support a certain cause. And this is part of the plan here as it seems. A large scale defamation campaign "from behind", which may or will reach the "major press" one day. And literally tear apart any credibility of Dr.Campbell and his publications!
I am aware that those people are reading these threads here too, therefore I do not provide too many inside informations. I only hope to direct some of your attention to what is happening in the Wikipedia article (right now!). Many people, simple people, only know what is written in the Wikipedia. They presume that it is maybe not all true, but most of it IS. They presume that if there is a long Wikipedia article with a lot of scientifically sounding material, then this is the current stance of the real science! It is very easy to quickly destroy even the most credible people and organizations, by massively - but professionally - exploding and rewriting major Wikipedia articles!
Please do not take this lightly. This is a war somebody is leading on, but it can be stopped by focused and clear approach at the major concentration points (like the Wikipedia).
I have read through most of the comments in that scam blog and it seems only a few seem to be mistrusting the truthfulness of this entire bizarre scenario. Just tell me, which "private fun blogger" is able, aside of her alleged full time work and study of "English literature", to write 36 pages of scientific responses to a professor?!! And again and again??? Either "she" is some sort of very mighty - and very mad and crazy and hate filled - genius, which in itself would be something extremely rare and highly unlikely (really, why would a pretty young girl have so much reason for such a giant ordeal, fight, all that massive work, all that hate??? such a massive and time consuming insane campaign on such a scale??? and why does "she" have so many "sudden" supporters, and why is she portrayed so elaborately as a "scientific opponent of Dr.Campbell" in the Wikipedia???). Or "she" is in reality another underground camping. And I have seen enough of those.
Please consider adding this possibility to your agenda and to support the Wikipedia article on a daily base. Thank you in advance (sorry for my phony nickname, but I have also seen a lot of real violence, and try to protect my privacy art least a bit, even if this is often impossible).
I just wanted to add that after I tried to remove the "Denise Minger" scam it got brought back within a few hours. "Denise Minger cannot be a scam, because Dr.Campbell replied to her". Cast aside the fact that "she" is some random foodie blogger with no scientific background.
I should probably start some random blog too. Study "English literature" and get some "proper" sounding writing skills. Then I will write "scientific" sounding PDF "documents" and discuss them with large amounts of real professors and doctors. And in no time I will turn a professor doctor myself! I will be a "credible source of scientific data"! So THAT'S how it is! Good that I know it now, from now on I can be my own "scientist" and write my own "scientific reports" and "prove" whatever I wish in the universe - as long it sounds "scientific enough" all will be as true as can be.
I also copy the whole current Denise Minger propaganda directly from the Wikipedia article (please note that all mentions about her status as fun foodie blogger get instantly removed and she is portrayed as a "credible source of scientific criticism"; also, the notion that "Campbell shut down his page and failed to respond to her criticism" is the same as saying "he lost in a fair and high level scientific battle and had to run away and hide quickly" - I never thought humans could be this dumb, but it seems that any random blogger is credible to "debunk" ANY scientists or professor or anybody, as long as they can talk long and important):
Independent Analyses of Raw China Study Data
The availability of the original China dataset in .csv format on Oxford University's website has enabled others to evaluate Campbell's conclusions.
Minger and Campbell Discussions
In the Summer of 2010, beginning with Denise Minger's publication of The China Study -- Fact or Fallacy?, an online discussion of the China Study's conclusions and methodology occurred between Campbell and Minger.
As of this writing, the full sequence of Minger criticisms and Campbell rebuttals was as follows:
* Minger's The China Study -- Fact or Fallacy? appeared on July 7, 2010
* Campbell's July 12 response by email to former vegan Tynan of Tynan.net
* Minger's July 16 reply The China Study: My Response to Campbell
* On July 22, Campbell & son launched the website CampbellCoalition.org featuring Campbell's article Denise Minger Reply
* On August 3, Minger published a 36-page paper, "The China Study -- A Formal Analysis & Response." Campbell has yet to respond.
* On August 24, CampbellCoalition.org was shut down, though it remains available through Google's cache.
Specific Minger Criticisms
In The China Study -- A Formal Analysis & Response, Minger developed her objections to The China Study in response to Campbell's rebuttals. The paper expands at length on the following criticisms:
* Campbell's indirect linkage of animal protein with cancer by way of cholesterol ignores cancer's stronger direct links with carbohydrate consumption, schistosomiasis and hepatitis B infection.
* Campbell's indirect association of breast cancer with lipid intake and lipid intake with animal protein is not supported by the data. Further, Campbell fails to test if animal protein is directly linked with breast cancer, even though such data is available in the China Study monograph.
* Campbell's claim that plasma cholesterol increases liver cancer risk conflicts with data indicating that liver cancer is inversely associated with meat, egg, and dairy consumption.
* Campbell incorrectly confers heart-protective effects on green vegetables, ignoring stronger evidence that the heart disease variable tracks geographic location rather than volume of vegetables consumed.
* Campbell's three-variable linkage between animal protein, apolipoprotein B, and cardiovascular disease is "unsupported by logic and contradicted by the China Study data", adding, "it seems curious [that Campbell] does not explore the consistent inverse relationships between most animal foods and cardiovascular disease."
* Campbell's use of unadjusted univariate correlations to confer the appearance of protective benefits on plant foods but not on animal foods is biased and unfounded.
* Campbell's use of a three-variable chain to connect animal foods with “Western” diseases by way of cholesterol, ignoring stronger direct links (such as with blood glucose levels) is misleading.
* Campbell ignores plant-based variables associated with disease, particularly starch, sugar, and beer consumption per capita
* Campbell's projection of casein’s carcinogenic action in rats to all forms of animal protein in humans is unsupported, and ignores the consistent anti-cancer action of whey, another milk protein.
* The specific biological models Campbell employs support neither his claim that animal foods are unhealthful nor the three-variable chains he creates to implicate animal products with cancer, heart disease, and other chronic conditions. Further, his use of univariate correlations to impose these links is unfounded.
* Campbell failed to investigate the high correlation of wheat consumption with heart disease (r = 0.67, p<0.001) and obesity (r = 0.59, p<0.001). In addition, Campbell fails to note the "astronomical correlations wheat flour has with various diseases: +46 with cervix cancer, +54 with hypertensive heart disease, +47 with stroke, [and] +41 with diseases of the blood and blood-forming organs...."
* Campbell's admitted search for validation of his pre-determined hypothesis has resulted in confirmation bias. "By not testing alternative hypotheses alongside his own, Campbell runs the risk of investigative tunnel vision, and cannot truly determine whether his hypothesis is more valid than another. ... [With over] 8,000 statistically significant correlations, [...] the China Study has generated enough material to bolster nearly any theory, regardless of actual validity—and for this reason, mandates an impartial and multi-perspective approach rather than a search for a predetermined outcome."
* Campbell does not adequately explain his exclusion of data from China's Tuoli county, where residents enjoy good health despite consuming virtually no plants and "twice as much animal protein as the average American (including two pounds of casein-filled dairy per day)—yet don’t exhibit higher rates of any diseases Campbell ascribes to animal foods"
Minger concludes, in part, "By naming animal products as the source of Western afflictions, Campbell has created a hypothesis valid only under hand-picked circumstances -- one that cannot account for other epidemiological trends or even recent case-controlled studies. This is a symptom of a deficient theory."
It is good to know that having a blog and "scientific" writing skills is ALL that is necessary to be a "credible scientific source". I should start a blog like that too. Maybe I can get rich quick selling my soon to be printed "scientific books" about "scientific subjects" which so accidentally happen to sound the way people want to hear it. I think this type of "science" was largely available during the Middle Ages. Maybe the Middle Ages are back on track. Why study at all, and why have any education at all, if some important sounding bullsh*t is all that is needed in life?
it looks like you are engaged in a real wiki war over there.
why not simply post links to items here which refute minger, masterjohn etc. they are as credible as anything posted on those blogs and better researched as well as expressed.
>>it looks like you are engaged in a real wiki war over there.
>>why not simply post links to items here which refute minger, masterjohn etc. they are as credible as >>anything posted on those blogs and better researched as well as expressed.
Hi prad :)
I just come back from the Wikipedia with a small first victory :) I was alerting many (vegan) admins and long term editors, and other people were on the move as well, and finally one of THE major Wikipedia admins, who happens to be vegan, is now watching over the article. ALL the "Denis Minger" blah got removed :) Plus some of the other only blog published, not peer-reviewed and not in the least scientifically backed nonsense too!
I am never too optimistic, but this is one good step in the right direction.
Your idea of adding 30bananas.com as source is basically good, but I tried that already, and it got wiped out in no time, even with sarcastic comments added. I wanted to add some of the material that Dr.Campbell left here on his own, so it was all credible and not some private blog, but it seems as I said, somebody is trying to manipulate and spread intrigues in the background, and so 30bananas.com is seemingly one of the targets :(
I hope however we can at least provide a counterbalance to all that insanity and protect good informations from destruction and defamation campaigns.
So far you have a good source of monitoring data on this gathered here, and so people who are unbiased and seek real info will find this here too and not only the Paleo and caveman idiocy.
I am following your discussions here and I am very very glad about so many well educated people with such a large background knowledge looking into all that :) I am hopeful for the future. If good scientifically based knowledge about the benefits of plant based foods becomes more mainstream, then we will have way more good high quality vegan foods, and also, there will be less discrimination and trouble in the daily life. I still cringe thinking about a friend who lost her job, because she refused to eat steak with the boss, I mean she was literally supposed to eat with them, there was this ultra-conservative steakhouse and the boss would be even more offended if she tried to eat a salad without dressing in front of him. She told me that she preferred to sneak away when nobody was looking, instead of being trapped among drunk older guys trying to force her to eat steak and milk and cheese :( And then the boss was so "personally insulted" that she was literally bullied out of the job.
We really need more good scientific based solid informations and especially those informations entering the brains of many people. Other way not only the entire society loses billions in health costs and lives of people dying from avoidable "Western" diseases, but we also keep sticking inside that insane discriminatory mud, where people have to explain and literally feel ashamed of "not being normal" if they do not eat animal :(
I think maybe the entire hate is caused by people fearing somebody literally stealing their favorite food from their plates. I conversed to vegan for clear health reasons. I only wish that there is mutual respect, I do not criticize and destroy the food of others, so I expect MY food to be of good quality and widely available too. And not being treated as some sort of alien. Maybe the meat eaters will start thinking differently when meat starts being available only for high prices, in bad quality, and in hidden dusty corners of the supermarkets, while all the large well lit wide aisles are full of vegan food. I just want to live well and eat well and I do not care what others want to eat, it should be possible to find enough good food for everybody. But no, the steak and bacon and butter eaters want to have their heart attacks and their cancers adorned with "scientific data", proving that their food choices had nothing to do with that, as in "stay blind and deaf until your last breath".
this site is understandably a target. we don't compromise or seek "mutual respect" and we definitely do "criticize and destroy the food of others" (as you put it). however, we provide a scientific and ethical substantiation for doing so. i'm sure you've figured all this out by now since you have been following this site.
thx for trying to add 30bad to the wiki. it'll be wiped out a few times, but eventually it will stay. certain posts on here are really well done (eg look at chris' in this thread from minger's blog for instance as well as follow the link to B's response "has minger read the china study") and finely substantiated. however, i understand it might be difficult to have people accept items from a forum due to the format and nature of such vehicles (never mind the topic itself).
i'm glad you are directing your efforts to this cause (well done on your alerting efforts on wiki!) and if you have the time or inclination to join in some of the activities here (see plan of action and specifically manderinpeel's faq project), please do so.
looks like they noticed all this over at RFSOS - and are playing the victim card - ironically - after their people spammed the wiki China Study site to increase the profile of their position!
As a new poster can I ask if Campbell has given a response to Harriet Hall? she is generally credited with being the person with the best credentials who has criticized TCS - but who uses Denise as her source (very 'science based' to refer to bloggers with no interest in peer-review).. has she acknowledged the flaws in Minger's critique in light of Campbell's rebuttal? if not why not?