Cat lovers

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Comment by Peter Csere on November 19, 2012 at 1:43am

Anthropocentrism: We have two species of animal captive and domesticated. Cats and chickens. So we kill one and feed it to the other. This is an incredibly human-centric phenomenon, and even if it weren't human centric, it is undeniable feline-centric. We do not place the value of one species above the value of another. We either find a habitat where the feline can hunt his/her own food without damaging the ecosystem, or we feed the feline a nutritionally complete diet based on raw plant foods.
Now, I love debate and all, but from now on I will likely be deleting all posts in this and other kitteh-friendly sections of the forum that violate the 30BaD Animal Sanctuary and No-Kill Zone guidelines. There are plenty of resources on the topic should you wish to peruse. The ethics and biology have been discussed for years and years so there is nothing we can say that has not already been said. 

Comment by Peter Csere on November 19, 2012 at 1:39am

One more thing that I would like to add. The analogy to humans is invalid. "Feeding a cat not-meat is the same as feeding a human meat!" It is based on a poorly applied "appeal to nature" logic fallacy. The inaccuracy lies in the fact that plant fats, amino acids, and simple carbohydrates are far easier to digest than meat so you would be in fact making a backwards comparison. We are not, of course, talking about cellulose or starch, because then one could begin to form a new analogy based not on an appeal to nature but on comparative physiology. 

Comment by little merrmaid on November 18, 2012 at 7:33am

[Post deleted, violates guidelines]

http://www.30bananasaday.com/notes/Animal_Sanctuary_and_30BaD_No_Ki...

Comment by Peter Csere on November 18, 2012 at 1:59am

Heck, cats with CKD are fed low-protein high-carbohydrate formulations - still not less than 26% dry weight, as that's as impossible as feeding a human less than 3% protein - but to make grand generalizations about the toxicity of glucose to cells masks a crippling understanding of basic biological principles which is essential to any discussion of biology. 

Comment by Peter Csere on November 18, 2012 at 1:56am

Again, I can assure you that the data you use and the arguments you make are precisely the same ones I used when discussing this with prad and others on the forum at the beginning of the year. And you are becoming frustrated at the exact same perceived shortcomings that frustrated me. And the errors in your analytical thought-process and inability to consider multiple disciplines simultaneously ("I'll counter your ethics with biology" - excuse me? Doesn't work that way.) are precisely the same ones I made. 
Here's a principle from physics. Let me just brush that off with a principle from chemistry! Sounds ridiculous, don't it ;-) It's what happens when you reduce a complex argument to a single discipline and consider that all other disciplines are extraneous and must be considered separately. (Your incorrect assumption that I consider ethics while ignoring biology and my correct assumption that you consider biology singularly while dismissing ethical concerns.) 

I was not referring to the enzymes.... but the whole process after digestion when nutrients enter bloodstream and organs. 

Um, after the nutrients enter the bloodstream and organs, they are the same nutrients whether they came from X or Y matter. Aside from a few specific examples, once broken down from the foodstuff, it cannot cross the intestinal barrier unless it is free of its accompanying tissue. Your misunderstanding of this, along with your bizarre statement that glucose is "toxic" to cat's cells - concerns me because it is deeply biasing your understanding of this issue. Glucose fuels all cells. If it were toxic to carnivores, no carnivores would exist. They break down protein and convert it to glucose. Look up gluconeogenesis in felines if you are interested in the subject. 
Now, you may be referring to studies in which cats were fed refined sugar and its toxicity was noted. However, interpreting this as "glucose is toxic to cats' cells" shows an astonishing lack of scientific literacy on your part. There are plenty of diabetes studies on humans in which they are fed refined sugars and the toxic effect is noted. Yet, you are here on a site called 30 Bananas a Day following a diet composed mainly of fruit. 

Comment by Peter Csere on November 18, 2012 at 1:41am

Mantika, to be honest, I do not care one bit about convincing anyone of anything. But as a PK one of the things I am tasked with is deleting non-vegan posts and comments that are contrary to 30BaD guidelines. Posting within guidelines is something you agreed to as a member when joining of your own free will. 

http://www.30bananasaday.com/notes/Animal_Sanctuary_and_30BaD_No_Ki... 

This guidelines must be adhered to in this group. This is a vegan website and we do not support killing one species of animal to feed another species. 

You are making it sound very complicated but it is as simple as this: We have 2 options. Option one: Killing one species to keep another species alive. Option 2: Not killing one species, and feeding the other species a non-evolutionary diet, but one that actually results in better health than the evolutionary diet (I'm not sure which 'vegan' diet you refer to which results in degenerative disease, but not one that I'm interested in). You make it sound like option one is a clear winner, when that's obviously not the case. How is murder better than change in diet? That is a bizarre ethical error. 

Comment by little merrmaid on November 17, 2012 at 8:47am

[Post deleted, violates guidelines]

http://www.30bananasaday.com/notes/Animal_Sanctuary_and_30BaD_No_Ki...

Comment by Peter Csere on November 17, 2012 at 8:09am

I agree that they do not have the digestive enzymes to break down and thus utilize nutrients from vegetables or grains. 

Everything else you said is rubbish, though. I know because I used to say the exact same things nearly a year ago. Again, I have all the data you do. Plant fat and raw plant amino acid they have comparatively little problem with. The only issue is with nutrients found in cooked plant carbohydrate. The only reason this is an issue is that cooked complex carbohydrate, although most of the complex carb has been converted to simple carb via heat application, still contains quite a bit of complex carb, and the feline digestive system is unable to obtain a certain percent of nutrient from that complex carbohydrate. And that is why vegan cat food contains the appropriate enzymes. However, even without the enzymes, the cat is still able to utilize the majority of the nutrient content since it is contained within simple carbs that have already been broken down. Your charge of deficiency and starvation is greatly exaggerated. 

And you are also incorrect regarding the nutrients added in supplement form. The only ones added are the few that are not found in plant foods in sufficient amount, not "all of them" as alleged. The rest are easily obtainable from plant sources. 

I would bring up toxicity issues, except that even cooked carbohydrates with their acrylamide and dextrinized starch have a lower toxic load than raw meat in its natural state. We are forgetting that raw meat is incredibly hard to break down whether or not you are a carnivore. So all comparisons must be made accurately. 

Comment by Peter Csere on November 17, 2012 at 7:18am

Cats fed a proper, nutritionally complete vegan diet are far healthier than cats fed a proper, nutritionally complete raw meat, bones, and organs diet. I have seen far too many examples of this to take anyone else's experience with anything other than a humongous grain of celtic sea salt. 

Comment by Peter Csere on November 17, 2012 at 7:17am

I can assure you that I know everything that you know about cat digestion and nutrition. I am aware that cats do not have the proper enzymes for digesting certain foods. It is interesting that you assume I do not have this information. Again, I assure you I have all the information that is available via veterinary publications and research journals regarding cat metabolism. 

Please note that cats should not be fed grains under any circumstances. 

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