Just remember Where and how it comes to you.

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Permalink Reply by Casey on August 12, 2012 at 12:57pm

Nice post, I'll share another perspective...

We don't all come to this lifestyle for ethical reasons - obviously that is the #1 driving factor but not for many. Before ever even trying veganism, I met a couple raw vegans who were so horribly dogmatic and judgmental that I refused it for a long time, thinking the diet and personality were related. I personally started trying different diets in the pursuit of better health. I was vegan for while with no direction, and sufficed okay but eventually thought I needed dairy for animal proteins so I went dairy-heavy (though no eggs) vegetarian and actually *did* do better than I had been which was a bit misleading. Later, I ended up trying veganism again, this time trying it via a vegan macrobiotic approach, which is low fruit and high-grain. This is the diet that first got me really caring about the quality of foods I'd buy. I don't know if it was the macrobiotic stuff I was reading or other detox stuff or both. I started getting the best quality ingredients I could - started caring about organic, local when possible, etc. The macrobiotic approach ended up a disastrous failure for me, so after reading some Sally Fallon material, I was convinced that humans need animal proteins and took up the Weston Price diet even forcing myself to handle/prepare meat/eggs which I never liked doing. Although I was cooking, all my produce was fresh whole organic, I bought nothing with more than a single ingredient at the store and started really being more aware of all the crap in food and what all of it is, why it's supposedly there, the effects of it on the body, etc. The milk I'd buy would be fresh and raw from a local farmer (had to buy a share of a cow to make that legal, lol). The eggs from chickens I could go watch run around in a forest all day instead of being confined to a small pen fed grain, with deep orange yolks instead of the pale yellow of store junk and with a very different taste. The meat either from that same farmer, or other organically/ethically-raised, preferably that I could go and see and verify.

The thing is, on that diet, I did better than I had healthwise in years. It wasn't perfect, but it was quite good. Meanwhile I'd post up a recipe and picture of something made with milk or meat up on my personal blogs, and I'd get raw vegan people telling me to not write posts about rape and murder, please.

Ultimately I found even better health going raw vegan, however I might have gone raw vegan SEVERAL YEARS earlier when I was first exposed to it and pursuing better health in the first place, were it not for the ethical dogma. Now I find myself in the interesting position of being a raw vegan who takes care not to give the same impression as I was by the first raw vegans I knew.

I think it's fine to tease people about what they are eating, or to challenge them if they know an ingredient they might have never paused to consider. I'll explain about casein and why milk and cheese are addictive but stop tasting good after a few months of abstinence. I'll talk about hormones and drugs and GMO feeds and horrendous living conditions and slaughtering methods that are used on the animals they are eating, in a matter-of-factly sort of way like "here's why I don't do that (not judging you, but I wouldn't do that, here's why, if you care to hear)" rather than "you are a bad person for eating an animal product" or "you are eating something that contains milk, therefore you support rape".

I think the #1 thing that is useful to convey to people is to start caring about what goes into your mouth. READ THE INGREDIENTS. If you don't know one, look it up. Assuming the worst case, because that documentation will never cover all the (known and unknown) effects, particularly long-term. We have many "safe" chemicals in our foods, yet we also have all of these new "mysterious cause" old-age diseases showing up that didn't exist a century or so ago, particularly nervous system-related. Don't just put anything in there that somebody else labeled as "food". Decide for yourself what "food" should be.

#2 - where did your food come from? Most people care about lowest relative price more than any other factor when shopping. Assuming they've started caring about ingredients as a higher priority, next should be where it came from. Here is where I talk about organic vs. non-organic practices - why organic is a better option even if it's never going to be as good as growing it in your backyard organically yourself, not only because the food contains less toxins (which most people do NOT understand get soaked up into the fruit from the root and think are only a surface spray which can be easily washed or peeled off), but because it contains more nutrients, how organic farming practices promote better soil in general, how synthetic fertilizer is only focused on 3 essential elements which are just the bare essentials, how it results in a better overall environment, how purchasing from more local sources reduces globalization pollution in addition to fighting against big abusive corporations (e.g. Wal-Mart). How if you are able to purchase directly from the grower you can help bypass all the shipping, packaging, taxing, and other issues that they'd otherwise face.

#3 How was your food treated? This includes unadvertised ingredients and is related to both of the above. Was it raised with care by people who poured love into providing care for the plants every day or actually treat their livestock as fellow animals rather than abused slaves. This goes for PLANTS AND ANIMALS. All life deserves respect, whether or not you choose to eat it. If I raise a garden of melons from saved seeds of the most delicious organic melons I've ever had, but if I begrudgingly and spitefully only water it because I have to because I want the stupid melons already, those aren't going to be very good melons. The love and care you have for something matters a lot!! Sometimes I will buy fruit that is probably not organic because it's from a small local farmer who is beaming with pride in the products of his labor, who clearly loved the process; and I think that can better than something grown on a big company organic farm by people who really don't care and are just there to earn a buck driving a huuuuuuuge tractor machine that makes quick careless work of the process. Ultimately, unless we are growing the food ourselves or know the grower personally, there's guesswork involved, but this is a thought process that is important and should be natural in any case, just as you described in your post. Think about it! So you might not have any ultimatum guarantees with organic local produce. But do you really think that the risk that there might be some un-organic contaminant in the "organic" produce from a region near you to be greater risk than something definitely not organic that was furthermore grown in another country where the regulations on what you can acceptably use on produce are even worse than where you live? Was the life/lives of what you're about to eat treated with respect and ended with equal respect? Even if you feel you can't afford the better alternatives, think about it. Maybe in time you'll want to reevaluate your priorities.

#4 when you eat, how do you feel? Are you feeling thankful and loving and appreciative, or pissed off at somebody or stressed about something or rushed to get finished? Are there lots of distractions as you eat, or is your mind able to focus mainly on appreciating the food? As those will affect both what you absorb that is good, and what is toxic.

If factory farming and industrial food preserving/coloring/"enhancing" continue to evolve as they have, things will only continue to get worse for those who don't think. Cooked processed "enhanced" food no fruit junk food vegan doesn't work very well at all. My only real point is that going up to somebody who *is* trying to think and is still stuck in thinking they need animal proteins based on their own direct experience (albeit perhaps limited) is going to be better off than the ethical junk food vegan, both physically and spiritually. And gosh, if you have somebody who's already thinking that much, it's not a hard task to convince them about the downsides of eating animal products, challenge them to a 30-, 60-, or 90-day trial to gain firsthand experience, etc. I have one coworker in this state - he's been conditioned to think that to be fit he needs to restrict carbs and eat lots of animal proteins. Conditioned enough to think and care, even if he hasn't found the most ideal path yet. He gave up red meat a few years ago. Still eats chicken and fish and dairy, but has read up various links (including 30bad stuff) I send him and is looking more seriously into some books. I am pretty sure I'll be able to get him to try a 30-day 811rv challenge pretty soon. That's more progress than I've been able to make in much longer-term coworkers that don't even think about what's in their packaged food to start with, though I've gotten a lot of people to at least incorporate more fruit into their diets. I guarantee you however that if I'd gone at even the most hopeful candidate with dogma, that would just cause a wall to be raised (who knows how long it may take to come down?), and possible retaliation.

So ultimately I agree with you wholly - 811rv has many advantages, *including* compassion to animals. But that's not the sole reason, and if your interest is to promote this diet to others, please be very careful about accusing them of murder or condoning violence. Most people need to experience for themselves this diet FIRST before they can understand your perspective (e.g. I understand what you're saying now, and agree, but a few years ago this would have offended me and caused me to turn away from the diet), so the trick is to convince them to TRY and gain some experience first. ;)

Permalink Reply by Skjaldmaer on August 12, 2012 at 2:58pm

Isnt it great that so many people can be doing the same thing for different reasons and freedom of thoughts allowed.

I have not and didn't at any point accuse anyone of murdering or condoning violence it was how I see people whom enjoy their meat. Now had I wanted to accuse anyone believe me I would have used very different words.

but thank you for you lovely write up to me in response and its great to find a few compassionate people on this site.

If this site works for me then I may consider promoting or passing it on but I'm new here and still learning and finding my way.

I also understand the levels of politics that seem to develop in rooms such as this it is not my intention to get involved in such matters and I would not mean to make any being feel like s***.

But from my experiences through out life if you don't say it how it is nothing gets achieved  If a person wants to change they will whether we have an input or not.

Cheers again and Safe journies.

Permalink Reply by Casey on August 12, 2012 at 4:07pm

Ahh, I might have read too far into your view, sorry for that - I of course don't know how you communicate with others, I can only speak from how others have affected me and what seems to affect others.  Thanks for just seeing it as I meant it though without taking it personally, which isn't how I meant it anyways. :)

The 30bad links I've passed along are posts or videos that address specific questions quite well.  Like of course the "where do you get your protein?!?" - I can answer that for the 500th time kind of poorly because I'm used to having to answer people who are just trying to criticize and have no genuine curiosity, or I can pass along a very informative video. :)

Saying it how it is, I agree, important!  Directness and honesty are key.  If the slaughterhouse were direct about their actions and posted factory farm and slaughterhause videos on TV commercials, would more people rush to buy meat?  Society is conditioned to remain ignorant for the most part, and then it becomes easier to keep things more hidden from the general public.

"To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest."

 ~ Gandhi

Permalink Reply by Skjaldmaer on August 12, 2012 at 8:42pm

All good thanks Casey. I totally understand. When and If I need Ill ask.

Safe journies.

Te