30 Bananas a Day!

Paleo/Primal Diets -- the uncanny and the macabre parrallel universe of raw meat eaters

This is a subject I'm just delving into, anyone with more knowledge in this subject is welcome to contribute. There's seems to be a whole library of literature devoted to rationalizing the use of animal foods for health and environmental reasons, ostensibly backed by scientific studies. This is where we begin to investigate the matter.

Glossary of terms:
RPD - (acronym) Raw Paleo Diet
RAF - (acronym) Raw Animal Foods
High Meat -- meat that has been left out unrefrigereted for days/weeks (ala aajonus vonderplanitz) :b

Web:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/ -- RPD online community; the 30BaD of the paleoverse.. Shows the cultish nature of these diets, the recipe sections can be quite disturbing, you've been warned..

http://paleodiet.com/
-- Paleo diet nutrition, includes links to introductory articles/websites on paleo nutrition, naive vegos, etc.

http://www.beyondveg.com/ -- website of Tom Billings, failed former vegan and fruitarian, who now spends his time bashing (r)veg folk.

http://zeroinginonhealth.com/
-- "Zero carb" diet website. See here for more info.


Books (haven't gotten my hand on any of these yet, anyone who has could write an abstract):

Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth

Nora Teresa Gedguadas' Primal Body-Primal Mind

Paleo nutritional theory:

From what I gather much of Paleo nutritional theory is based on 'new' research in human evolution, studies citing that there's no link between saturated fat consumption and cholesterol etc. I'm just beginning to investigate the manner, but it all smells a little fishy to me, pardon the pun.

Also apparently there is an 'old school' high protein paleo diet, and a paleo 2.0 if you will that is high fat but low protein (don't ask me how that's supposed to work!). It seems the Primal Body-Primal Mind book is at least in part a text on Paleo nutrition 2.0.

Paleo nutrition case study 1: Paleo diet theory 1.0?
   - This was my response to a post on the raw natural hygiene site showing some astonishingly bizarre conceptions of human physiology in the paleo universe. It is still unclear to me whether this view was solely that of the poster or if it is shared by many in the paleoverse.

Counter evidence to the Paleo argument



Man the Hunted: Primate Predators and Human Evolution.
Robert W. Sussman, PhD
- debunks the "early humans as predator" myth.

Frugivorous Ancestry of Humans part 1

-- excerpt from an article c/o of 30BaD's Gosia claiming that human digestive physiology has not changed since our frugivorous days (hunter gathering didn't turn us into obligate carnivores lol)

Tags: paleo diet, primal diet, raw meat

Views: 553

Replies to This Discussion

Who cares if we eat fruit and vegetables!

it seems to me that the situation is more serious than that because of the progress fruit and veg people have made.

the crapaleos lose:

1. the ethics argument outright
their bizarre rationalizations like animals gladly die so they can be eaten, or it's all part of nature (ie to go to the supermarket to get your slab of corpse), or the arithmetically amusing mass murdering plant industry, all get embarrassing even for them

2. the environmental argument (after minimal contemplation)
part of which is done in the mass murder link above, but it's really pretty silly to think that large pastures are going to replace the factory farms - i'll bet ol' mcdonald's will have to say something about this!

3. the health argument
because there is an overwhelming abundance of literature available clearly demonstrating the hazards of eating from the corpse industries some of which will show up in the i told you so thread

however, because it is so easy to produce studies when you have the funding, groups like wapf figure this is their best (and likely, only) line of attack. the crapaleos, seeing the writing on the wall, try to do the 'little bit of corpse' routine denouncing factory farms and cruelty with indignance and blood-stained lips.

in friendship,
prad
Well, meat eaters are often threatened by the mere of existence of vegans. It is a reminder that they can make healthier, more ethical choices, but don't.

to follow up on anne's review below, here is the dr messina review of the peculiar effort by lierre keith:

http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/09/review-of-the-vegetarian-myth.html

thx to raw zombie for bringing it to our attention.

text is copied below.

in friendship,

prad

====

Review of “The Vegetarian Myth”

Lierre Keith suffers from numerous chronic health problems. Unable to secure a diagnosis for most of them, she decided that the vegan diet she had followed for twenty years was to blame. But she wasn’t content to add a few animal products back to her diet. Instead, she set out to prove that healthy diets require copious amounts of animal foods and that small-scale animal farming is the answer to sustainability. To prove it, she has cobbled together information from websites (yes, she actually cites Wikipedia!) and a few popular pseudoscientific books.

It’s next to impossible to review this book; it is so packed with misinformation and confusion that refuting the claims could be another book itself. This is a long post, and it doesn't begin to address all of the problems in The Vegetarian Myth.

I read the section on nutrition first. Since it’s my area of expertise, I figured it would give me some idea of the quality of her research and analysis. But quality isn’t at issue here because there is no research or analysis. Keith doesn’t bother with primary sources; she depends almost exclusively on the opinions of her favorite popular authors, which she presents as proof of her theories. For example, when she writes about evolution as it affects dietary needs, and suggests that “the archeological evidence is incontrovertible,” she is actually referencing the book Protein Power, written by two physicians who have no expertise in evolution or anthropology. It’s a neat trick, of course, because we have no idea where the Protein Power authors got their information. By burying all of the actual studies this way, she makes it laborious for readers to check her facts.

I doubt she did this on purpose. And I don’t think she was being sloppy or lazy, either. She just doesn’t understand how complex the research is and she certainly doesn’t know much about basic nutrition. Worse, her conclusions are indebted to the Weston A Price Foundation, a non-credible group that bases its recommendations on the opinions of a dentist who wrote up his observations of indigenous populations in the 1930s.

Keith makes a big point about the fact that humans now eat foods—grains—that our Paleolithic ancestors rarely ate. But she never discusses the fact that dairy, a food she heartily endorses, falls into the same category. In fact, while grains could be gathered, ground and consumed by our ancestors, dairy is 100% dependent on agriculture. The fact that normal human development—throughout most of the world, at least—results in a decreased ability to digest dairy foods, should provide a major clue that humans did not evolve to consume them. None of this gets even a mention in the book.

Instead, we get page after page of contradictions, fabrications, and misinterpretations. Not surprisingly, given the sources she uses, Keith is woefully confused about fats. She believes that saturated fat is needed for absorption of vitamins and minerals, that polyunsaturated fat is “low-fat,” and that we have a dietary need for cholesterol. In fact, we have no dietary need for either saturated fat or cholesterol—there is no RDA for either. The liver makes all the cholesterol our bodies require. And the two essential fatty acids required by humans—both unsaturated—are found in plant foods.

On page 172 she suggests that fat intake has dropped by 25% over the past 15 years. Thirty pages later she says it has fallen by 10%. You might think that this discrepancy would send her to the actual data, in which case she would have found that fat intake has increased over the past 15 years. Among Americans, total fat intake is around 33% of calories and a good one-third of that is saturated fat—so her belief that Americans consume 30% of their calories as polyunsaturated fat is also wrong.

There is a long section on eating disorders with the popular claim that vegetarian diets are a cause. But the experts who have done research in this area point out that girls with anorexia may choose vegetarian diets as a way of masking their eating behavior. There is no evidence—according to these experts—that girls who are vegetarian or vegan are any more likely than anyone else to develop an eating disorder.

Like most anti-vegetarians she is vehemently against soy, insisting that it reduces testosterone levels and therefore male libido (there is no evidence of this) and she speculates that African-American girls reach puberty faster because they are more likely to be enrolled as infants in food assistance programs like WIC and therefore, to be fed soy infant formula. It’s true that African-American babies are less likely to be breastfed, but I couldn’t find any indication that they consume more soy formula. And, recent research has linked animal protein to earlier puberty and cow’s milk to excessive growth in children. There is no evidence that soy is involved in either; in fact, recent preliminary research suggests that soy could slightly delay puberty in girls.

On page 227, she notes that “Mark Messina, a champion of soy, thinks the Japanese eat 8.6 [grams of soyfoods] per day,” or less than a tablespoon. Really? Well, I happen to be married to Mark Messina, so I have a fairly good idea of what he “thinks” about soy intake. But even if I didn’t know him, I could read his 2006 analysis of soy intake data that was published in the peer-reviewed medical journal Nutrition and Cancer. Apparently, Keith didn’t or she would have seen that Asian soy intake is the equivalent of 1 to 1 ½ servings or more per day. Why did she get this so wrong? It’s because she doesn’t understand that there is a difference between soy protein intake and soy food intake. A cup of soymilk contains around 7 grams of soy protein, so the 8.6 to 11 grams of protein that the Japanese typically eat is equal to at least a serving per day.

(There is much more on soy in this book, covering all the usual criticisms, but I’m going to address that in another post; it’s a big topic.)

I’m less able to evaluate her discussion of the environmental consequences of animal farming, although it seems reasonable to assume that she gets as much wrong in this section. Some things did jump out. Notably, she points out that ten acres on Polyface Farm can produce enough food to feed 9 people for a year. But on his blog Say What Michael Pollan, mathematician Adam Merberg performs calculations which suggest that Polyface requires more calories in feed (for the chickens) than it produces in food. The numbers aren’t nearly as egregious as those for factory farming, but they suggest that there is no such thing as truly sustainable meat production. (For more on environmental questions associated with Polyface, I highly recommend Adam’s review of the Omnivore’s Dilemma.)

It’s true that Keith is vehemently against factory farming for both environmental and ethical reasons. But she remains convinced that food production is impossible without animal waste, which ignores the value of leguminous cover crops in fixing soil nitrogen.

But Keith didn’t give up veganism because of concerns about the environment; she gave it up because she didn’t feel well. Much of where she goes wrong is in confusing food cravings with biological needs. When she decides to eat her first bite of tuna fish after 20 years as a vegan, she says “I don’t know how to describe what happened next. […] I could feel every cell in my body—literally every cell—pulsing. And finally, finally being fed. Oh god, I thought: this is what it feels like to be alive.”

This, more than anything, shows that Keith’s conviction about her need for meat has to do with something other than nutrition—because food just does not work like that. Eating a bite of tuna—no matter how deficient you might be in a nutrient that it supplies—does not cause all of your body cells to start pulsing. It wouldn't cause you to feel too much of anything. (At the very least, you’d have to digest and absorb it first!)

It’s true that some vegans are too skinny and are not healthy. They don’t eat enough fat or enough calories or they refuse to supplement with vitamin B12. Or they make any of the many mistakes that people make with all types of diets. But Keith insists that a vegan diet will damage us all–she is 100% certain of this–and it is simply not true. It’s not supported by nutrition science and it isn’t supported by simple observations of long-term vegans, not to mention vegan-from-birth children.

Interestingly, she never tells us what she ate when she was vegan or what she eats now that she is an omnivore. Except to say that she used to eat “all carbohydrates” (All? No wonder she was sick) and that she now eats mostly animals and their secretions. And while she thinks she understands “moral vegetarians,” she reveals her total disconnect from a vegan ethic with three short sentences in the closing paragraphs of the book, “I have looked my food in the eye. I have raised some of it myself, loved it when it was small and defenseless. I have learned to kill.”

This is ultimately a sad book. Lierre Keith has suffered from multiple health problems all of her life and was desperate to find an answer. She landed on vegetarianism and then spun a tale to support her theory. Her intent seems heartfelt; she sees herself very much as a savior of vegetarians and wants us to learn from her mistakes. And the book has been widely embraced by those who want to believe that meat-eating is healthy and just. The problem is that there is truly nothing in this book that accurately supports that conclusion.

 

Zero Carb Lifestyle website

http://zeroinginonhealth.com/

To summarize here's the "7 Simple Rules of the Human Carnivore" (I'll give anyone a nickel who can read through this entire list without bursting out laughing):

1) Eat only from the animal world (eggs, fish, redmeat and fowl and some dairy are all animal sourced foods, i.e.: meat).

2) Eat nothing from the vegetable world whatsoever. (Very small amounts of flavourings such as garlic/chillies/spices/herbs which may be added, are not ‘food’).

3) On diary: avoid milk and yoghurt (heavy carbs- lactose), use only pure (not ‘thickened’- heavy) cream (read the label), cheese and unsalted butter.

4) Don’t cook your meat very much- just a little bit on the outside- for flavour- blood-rare or bleu. For this reason I advise against eating pork.

5) Eat liver and brains only very infrequently- they are full of carbs.

6) Be sure to have plenty of fat of animal origin at each meal and eat mostly of the fat until you feel you have had enough- you can eat more lean at this point if you like- calories are not important, nor is the number of meals/day. Vegetable oils are not good food.

7) You do not need any supplements of any kind. Drink a lot of water and do not add salt to anything.


This is not a joke, this is a website in earnest with it's own blog, forum, and online store with "real girls eat beef" and "meatitarian" t-shirts for sale.

The fact that they make the observation that brains are full of carbs yet avoid them like the plague is very telling.
This article from the website is interesting, it summarizes the Paleo 2.0 version of human physiology quite well. Anyone's comments/critiques are welcome. I'll add my own at some point.

http://zeroinginonhealth.com/cholesterol.html

Here's an excerpt:

What Really Causes High Cholesterol

Pete Ahrens of Rockefellar University was considered by many investigators to be the single best scientist in the field of lipid metabolism. He observed how the triglyceride levels of some patients go up on low-fat diets and they fall on high fat diets. Ahrens called this carbohydrate-induced lipemia (an excessive concentration of fat in the blood). He gave lectures where he showed two photos of blood serum obtained in a test tube from the same patient. One photo was taken during the low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, and the other was taken during the high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet. One test tube was perfectly clear and the other was milky white, indicating the lipemia. The surprise was that the lipemia occurred during the high-carbohydrate diet and the clear liquid happened during the high-fat diet. Elliott Joslin reported this phenomenon in diabetics thirty years earlier.

Over the course of two decades, Ahrens only saw two patients whose blood serum became cloudy with triglycerides after eating high-fat meals. He had thirteen in whom carbohydrates caused the lipemia. Since Very Low Density Lipoproteins(VLDL) particles carry triglycerides and carry cholesterol they contribute to the total cholesterol. This means that when a person has high triglycerides their cholesterol will be elevated as well. This prompted Ahrens to believe that high cholesterol was an exaggerated form of the normal biochemical process which occurs in all people on high-carbohydrate diets.” He acknowledged that it was also possible that a genetic disorder might explain the observations.

Either way, the lipemia would clear up on a low-calorie diet. This would explain why the carbohydrate-induced increase in triglycerides was absent in Asian populations living primarily on rice. The majority of Asian populations ate at a bare subsistence level. They ate low-calorie diets compared with their level of physical activity, and this combination would counteract the triglyceride rising effect of the carbohydrates, according to Ahrens. The critical question was whether prolonged exposure to abnormally high triglyceride levels increased the risk of atherosclerosis. In other words, does eating too many carbohydrates lead to high triglycerides, which leads to heart disease?
:)
Frugivorous ancestry of humans part 1

thought I'd share a post from Gosia (hope she doesn't mind) on how the human digestive physiology has not been shown to adapt or evolve to humans current eating habits (SAD). It also suggests that our hunter gatherer period wouldn't have resulted in significant changes to our digestive tract, hence putting this in the paleo section.


[Gosia]It is rather well-known that human biology has not changed much since our early frugivorous days. The research on DNA also validates this. For example, my colleague who's work is in DNA says that humans have not evolved to the (SAD) diet we are currently eating. If you need references, a short trip to some scientific databases can easily fill in the blanks.

I will share some here (from http://www.rawgosia.com/articles/wheredidmywatermelongo.html):

“Anthropoids, including all great apes, take most of their diet from plants, and there is general consensus that humans come from a strongly herbivorous ancestry” [7]. Bonobos, “humans’ closest relatives in the animal kingdom” [10], “eat mainly ripe fruit, supplemented with herbaceous terrestrial plants” [11]. “Humans and apes are remarkably similar biologically. In the wild, apes and monkeys consume diets composed largely of plant foods, primarily the fruits and leaves of tropical forest trees and vines. Considerable evidence indicates that the ancestral line giving rise to humans (Homo spp.) was likewise strongly herbivorous (plant-eating)” [6]. In fact, “Humans are ancestrally derived from frugivorous primates” [3]. “Study of the diet of frugivorous human ancestors is accordingly of relevance to understanding the nutritional requirements of modern humans” [8]. A frugivorous dietary heritage of humans is frequently posited [1][2][3][4]. The molar morphology of the earliest hominins implies “a fairly frugivorous diet” [5]. “Comparative data suggests that human nutrient requirements and most features of human digestive morphology and physiology are conservative in nature and probably were little affected by the hunter-gatherer phase of human existence” [6]. “We were not biologically selected by the evolution process to eat the way we do today” [9]. “The widespread prevalence of diet-related health problems, particularly in highly industrialized nations, suggests that many humans are not eating in a manner compatible with their biology.” Consumption of “more fresh fruits and vegetables in greater variety” is recommended [7].

[1] “Fruits, fingers, and fermentation: The sensory cues available to foraging primates”, Dominy NJ, Integrative and Comparative Biol, 44 (4): 295-303, 2004.
[2] “Ferment in the family tree: Does a frugivorous dietary heritage influence contemporary patterns of human ethanol use?”, Milton K, Integrative and Comparative Biol, 44 (4): 304-314, 2004.
[3] “Ethanol, fruit ripening, and the historical origins of human alcoholism in primate frugivory”, Dadley R, Integrative and Comparative Biol, 44 (4): 315-323, 2004.
[4] “Evolutionary origins of human alcoholism in primate frugivory”, Dadley R, Q Rev Biol, 75(1):3-15, 2000.
[5] “Origin of Human Bipedalism: The Knuckle-Walking Hypothesis Revisited”, Richmond BG, Begun DR, Strait DS; Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 44:70-105, 2001.
[6] “Back to basics: why foods of wild primates have relevance for modern human health”, Milton K, Nutrition, 16(7):480-483, 2000.
[7] “Nutritional characteristics of wild primate foods: do the diets of our closest living relatives have lessons for us?”, Milton K, Nutrition, 15(6):488-498, 1999.
[8] “The Comparative Biology of Ethanol Consumption: An Introduction to the Symposium”, Dudley R, Dickinson M, Integrative and Comparative Biology, 44(4):267-268, 2004.
[9] “Similarities of prostate and breast cancer: Evolution, diet, and estrogens”, Coffey DS, Urology, 57(4 Suppl 1):31-8, 2001.
[10] “Divergence of T2R chemosensory receptor families in humans, bonobos, and chimpanzees”, Parry CM, Erkner A, le Coutre J, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 101 (41): 14830-14834 OCT 12 2004.
[11] “The social behavior of chimpanzees and bonobos - empirical evidence and shifting assumptions”, Stanford CB, Current Anthropology, 39 (4): 399-420 AUG-OCT 1998.


Great stuff Gosia :)
This is really great B! I never really thought about justifying my choices from that point of view. But now since all of the attacks going on at gitmr it seems like more knowledge is needed in this area. I really hate fighting actually- and that is what it comes down to most of the time because the proud animal killers have to win- and character assasinate people in the process.

I think people should have freedom of speach- but when it comes to aggressive people coming onto a site to disrupt and break down what it stands for- the administrator needs to have his balls checked.. I just don't understand how someone like Dru can let that kind of stuff continue for so long.

I would seriously like to have some help getting rid of them. But I am not good at those kinds of things..

It is definitely a macabre parallel universe!
this is a good thread andrew started:
http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/your-guide-to-an-early-death

it contains the link to a very well-documented article too:
http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

in friendship,
prad
Hi B,
About Tom Billings' site, I understand that he continues to be 'vegetarian' as a matter of choice though he concedes that it's largely a product of the agricultural revolution, that it's a relatively recent development for Homo species. And I wouldn't label him as 'bashing' fruitariansim/veganism, since he has great respect for the ideal, but he purely comes from the evidence based perspective of people's health over the longterm, and even in the short term in many cases with these diets. He's just reporting, researching, and sharing to make sense of why so many people have experienced substantial, if not major, health problems practicing veganims/fruitarianism/andthelike. What he has written has corroborated with my experience with myself and with many others, though maybe not all, and I wonder how people may be different in this 'adaptive' regard, or if it's just a matter of mindfully getting the right balance, if it one is not able to do so 'automatically/naturally/instinctively'. Though, just to mention, I've had the sense for a long time, based on my giving attention to this area since 1984, that the healthiest people I've known, based on appearance and performance in life, are generalist eaters, - they just live in a sort of timeless, but modern, 'balance'. Much more can be addressed with all this, I'm just being reasonably brief. That the body reveals is the truest guideline I've known, so it's a matter of getting 'in tune' with what your body indicates by its desire and response.
This is some gold work!

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