I think it is !
Disclaimer:
We are not trying to single out 811 as giving teeth problems, we are just here to give solid advice on how to take care of your teeth. There are plenty of diets that wreak havoc on the teeth and many people have bad teeth because of it (example)
HI Fellow primates :)
Thought with the last discussion with Stephen on teeth and hearing story of others having issues with their teeth that it would be good to post this discussion for 4 reasons,
1) as a warning to people on the diet to take care of their teeth properly.
2) Possibly we can change the recommendations that we give on this website (such as the LFRV pamphlet) to something like Frederic Patenaude or Don Bennet recommends. Which in short is something to kill bacteria to keep it in check. I have heard many people say that water just does not cut it from them and once they started using a good toothpaste or something else it really helped their teeth and gums (I am one of them).
3) to open the discussion to ask people what their hygiene protocol is to hear what people have to say so we can possibly come up with the best recommendations. Maybe I am the only one that brushing with water worked badly who knows (but I don' think so :)
Please answer the following
-How long you have been on the diet 100%?
-Has your teeth improved, remain the same or gotten worst.
-What is your dental hygiene protocol, Has it changed? what are your results.
-When was the last time you saw the dentist and were the results?
4)I love this diet and all that goes with it but I agree with Fred that I find quite a few people start to have teeth issues and blame the diet for nutrition reasons and abandon the diet thinking there is some deficiency. Unfortunately when people go 811 they also tend to abandon some key hygiene practices which then makes it confusing when they start having issues could it be nutrition or poor hygiene??
Nutrition? I don't think that would be the main reason people would have difficulties with their teeth. I have heard a lot of people say they have come from other diets and have very little issues with their teeth (that were a lot more deficient in nutrients, me included) but with 811 they started having issues. The teeth and bone are the same yes but we are exposing the teeth to a much different environment then the bones.
I want it so people have the most chance of success possible I find that we need to give advice that works for most people not just some. Then when a person who has teeth issues we can look on the nutrient side but I have a feeling it would a lot less.
So far most of the people I have heard have teeth issues started the diet and ditched what they were doing usually just brush with water. I would like to know if there are people who can say they too great care of their teeth and still have issues?. There will always be outliers due to genetics, previous histories etc, but would like to hear what people have to say so we can get a better idea.
Here is some of an email by Fred on the subject, I am no expert but I agree with what he has to say from my experiences and what I have read and talked to a very good holistic dentist. I know that Fred makes money from his internet site but he also is giving relevant info that people should listen too
Frederic Patenaude
I have over 10 years of experience in the raw food movement.
I've written several books on the subject, I've had one of
the very first raw food websites on the Internet, and I've
been in touch with tens of thousands of people following
this diet over the years.
I've met most of the raw-food leaders personally, and I've
even worked with many of them. I've even personally coached
hundreds of people to succeed with a raw food lifestyle.
And after all of these years, I've come to the conclusion
that raw-foodists have the worst dental health of any other
"health group" in the world.
What I have observed is:
* I high incidence of dental decay among raw-foodists, after
they switch to the diet
* A high incidence of gum recession and enamel erosion among
raw-foodists
* Sudden, drastic & dramatic dental problems that occur
typically 1 to 3 years after a person has switched to the
raw food diet, and tend to persist overtime.
I have gone through a series of dental problems myself as a
direct result of following the raw-food diet incorrectly
(and I'm not even talking about eating a lot of dates
here), and I have met at least several hundred people who
have gone through similar issues.
I know several leaders of the raw-food movement who have
experience an increasing number of dental problems on the
raw food diet, and still won't come clean about it and
explain to their followers why this happens.
---------------------------------
The "weak link" of the raw diet
---------------------------------
There's a lot of positive aspects to the raw food diet. But
the issue of dental health is the real weak link. A person
can experience lots of wonderful beneficial effects on the
raw food diet, but notice their dental health go downhill.
In my experience, it's also the number one reason why
people quit on the diet after being successful with it for
many years.
It doesn't happen to every raw-foodist. It probably happens
to the large majority however, and there is a direct
correlation between the switch to the raw diet and the
development of dental problems.
---------------------------------
The Two Culprits
---------------------------------
At this point, if you have the least interest in eating raw
foods, you should start reading very, very closely.
Dental decay is not caused by eating the wrong diet. That's
right. Dental decay is actually a *transmittable disease*.
Dental decay is the result of the proliferation of certain
types of bacteria in the oral environment. The bacteria
eliminate acid waste that eat into your teeth and cause
decay.
There are only TWO reasons why raw-foodists experience more
problems when they moved to the diet. But before we look at
them, let's take a look at what is NOT the cause of these
problems. So raw-foodists DON'T have problems with their
teeth because...
- They don't eat enough greens
- They don't get the proper ratio of calcium/phosphorus
- They are not consuming "super nutrition"
- They are not consuming enough calories
- They eat too many acid forming foods like nuts and seeds
All of the reasons above are NOT why raw-foodists get
problems with their teeth. The only two reasons why
raw-foodists get problems with their teeth are:
- Underlying issues (the bacteria count)
- Sugar
Once you understand this simple concept, you'll be able to
eradicate decay for life.
What happens is that when people move into the raw-food
diet, they are basically a time-bomb as far as their dental
health is concerned. Their bacteria count is a little too
high, but not high enough to cause major problems.
Suddenly, they dump a bunch of sugar into their mouths. This
sugar creates a giant feast for the bacteria who feed on
them.
So in that sense, the introduction of a higher quantity of
natural sugar is the determining factor. This sugar can be
in various forms... it doesn't matter for the bacteria who
feed on them! There is no difference between white sugar and
banana sugar when it comes to increasing the bacteria count
in the mouth!
And this sugar is plentiful in the raw food diet. We're
talking about:
- Fresh fruits (bananas, mangoes, etc.)
- Fruit juices
- Dried fruits
- Nuts and seeds (which stick to the teeth)
- Raw food "bars" and dehydrated treats
- Dates
- Smoothies (that's right)
- Green smoothies (that's right)
- Coconut water
Now... here's where it gets interesting. Sugar is food for
the bacteria.
Normally, you want your bacteria count to be as low as
possible. You want to avoid bacteria forming in to
*colonies* and creating their own little civilization in
your mouth.
If your oral environment is really clean... it doesn't
really matter if you eat dates all day. If the bacteria
count is low, you can do that without problems.
So although the *precipitating* factor that creates problem
for raw-foodists is the introduction of more sugar, the
*real* problem are the underlying issues, so the bacteria
count!
The only way to prevent dental decay for life and reverse a
bad situation is to take active control of your oral
environment. Just controlling your diet does not address the
root of the problem.
I wanted to add he mentions the time bomb on the diet but he forgets to mention that many stop using something to kill bacteria on 811 which I think amplifies the issue, matter of fact i think if most people kept their previous hygiene practices most likely not be having this discussion. Though as Fred mentions we might want to reinforce are hygiene due to the higher sugar content and also if you eat a lot of acidic fruits to rinse with water.
So give your input and log what you do and your success with it? hopefully we will hear the last of these type of discussions at at least a lot less :)
Oh and just out of curiosity does anyone know the reason why most of have sensitive teeth at the beginning of the diet and then it goes away?
P.S I know there is plenty of diets that wreak havoc on the teeth and many people have bad teeth because of it (example), please don't mention this it is obvious. My focus is 80 10 10 to make sure we give recommendations that will make sure that we can smile when we say how well the diet is working :)
Listen to Dr.Nara who believes that is you keep the teeth clean you will not get decay. He has 50 years experience and claims if you follow his recommendations you will not have gum or teeth issues
http://mizar5.com/NaraOneRadio.html
Recommendations on
Permalink Reply by Mikey on Hey Blake I saw your reply on Stephens discussion and totally agree. It was like the white elephant in the room, Everybody focused on nutrition when his first response to the discussion about his dental Hygiene program should have been scrutinized
Reply by Stephen on
Forgot to mention dental Hygiene!
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.
To me this is what should have been what most of the discussion should have been about how this dental Hygiene program is just asking for it. It just goes to show you how many 811ers follow this poor advice not to criticize this regimen until you and me said something about it. funny everybody talking about calcium phosphorous ratio and maybe it is really important but most peoples ratios are bad on pretty well every diet.
Permalink Reply by TheBananaGirl on Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.
- Exactly what I do, no problems in 5.5years.
Permalink Reply by David Costa on Did you get sensitivity problems when you started eating fruit all the time? Does the sugar thriving bacteria level drop over time?
Permalink Reply by TheBananaGirl on No I didn't have sensitivity. I did have sensitivity in the past though to hot and cold and especially eating dried fruit.
I rarely get sensitivity but it's always when eating UNRIPE dried fruit or when I'm dehydrated. Funnily enough I ate about 200 grams of super-ripe dried jakfruit the other day (no problems) then went to tropical fruit world, the guy there gave me a sample of some what ended up being really Unripe pineapple and it immediately gave me sensitivity in my teeth. Immediately after that I began eating the jakfruit and guess what? Zero sensitivity.
Permalink Reply by David Costa on For me it has always been high sugar foods Dates, bananas, chocolate, caramel, granulated sugar, candy etc
Permalink Reply by David Costa on I'll pay close attention to my hydration and see if sugar bothers me in relation to that
Permalink Reply by TheBananaGirl on Good idea and remember being fully hydrated can take some time, just drinking enough water on one day isn't enough. Lance Armstrong for example starts his hydration 'program' months before the Tour.
Permalink Reply by David Costa on Been 2-4 liters a day for over a year, occasionally my pee is a little yellow on days where I don't get enough
Permalink Reply by Mikey on HI,
BG I am sure that for some this my work but for many it does not. As you know it is all in the details. Possibly Stephen has bacteria colonizing and you do not. Maybe he had the making of gingivitis (which is very common) and you did not. Do you have amalgam fillings? maybe Stephen did and they were irritating his gums like me and let pockets form allowing bacteria build up and decay his teeth. So possibly following these recommendations could work for you but not Stephen.
Also many people never hardly go to the dentist to check and think all is well when reality it is not (this can go on for years before problems get noticed by the person). I know a lot of times they can misdiagnose but a good dentist should be able to give you an idea on your dental state. When was the last time you have gone?
My point is if the bacteria has set in and you have nothing to kill them, possibly if they are just on the teeth under plaque or debris and you do a great brushing job possibly you might keep it under control but if they are in the gums then I do not believe flossing or brushing with water will work long term and serious dental issues will occur.
Currently I am going through this, I did the brushing with water and it did nothing to stop the decay at my gum line on several teeth because I have gingivitis (I have had it way before the diet as well, it just has gotten worst for my teeth, not blaming 811 but I do blame my dental hygiene program for doing nothing to control the situation and allowing things to progress).
After Stephens discussion and several others I was tempted to add eggs into the diet, because everything focused on potential lack in lifestyle and diet but I started seeing a common theme emerging either no hygiene or hygiene that does nothing to help problematic conditions or stop then from occurring (something to get rid of the bacteria). Also where my issues seemed most problematic were teeth that had bad spacing and food particles would stay there longer causing inflammation and now other issues (more prove that it is a direct cause an effect issue rather then I was not properly hydrated or did not get enough K2). I know if I wood have done a better job on the hygiene side they would have not progressed.
I took the road so far of not freaking out and throwing everything in the routine so at the end I will know what worked. I heard others adding in these simple hygiene recommendations and reversed their issues no matter the diet. I hope it does, for my teeth and for me to follow 811 because I love the diet and the fact I have no part in hurting animals. I am allowing for some time to see if the cracks reverse or the condition stabilizes and gets better because I know if I head over to the dentist office they will for sure do things possibly some I might regret or possibly I might regret of not going going sooner only time will tell
I need irrigation with something to kill the bacteria since following Dr.Naras recommendations I am seeing improvements. My gums are less inflamed and pinker, there is less yellow at the bottom of my teeth and my teeth feel a lot stronger in the gums.
If you have bacteria that have colonized in your mouth and gums then brushing with water, will not do much and eventually you will have gum and teeth issues. Not everyone has these bacteria, they can be transferred by kissing etc, but they are very common to get.
Depending on whom you read, from 87% to 98% of all Americans have ‘Periodontal' disease.
Many people are coming into the diet with teeth issues, recommending nothing to handle the bacteria in my eyes is is a mistake. You guys know that purity can get you into trouble and I think it is prudent we take the cautious side rather then give a to purist point of view on dental hygiene which people gladly follow.
Funny thing but DR.Naras recommendations which he claims if you follow and in his 50 years experience with patients and teeth whoever followed these recommendations never had gum disease or teeth issues. Also people with issues were able to reverse them (including gum disease and decay) no matter the diet. Like he says in the interview he is not a nutritionist but it does not matter the teeth will not decay if you follow his recommendations he knows this by a massive amount of experience. By the way all his info is free
Here is his recommendations every night before bed.
-Flossing with dental tape.
-Dry Brush for at least 2 minutes to 5 minutes (with correct brushing technique). He does not believe toothpaste is needed and actually find it inhibits your ability to brush since it foams up and causes you to stop brushing. I see what he is talking about it is much easier to dry brush for a long period of time.
-He believes in salt water flushes with hot water to help kill the bacteria. Just swishing it around vigorously is enough to kill and any bacteria in the mouth. Unless it has colonized in your gums and you have pockets. Then he suggests to do the salt water flush with and irrigation unit and a tip that is able to get in the pockets to kill bacteria and flush out any food particles to be able to reverse it.
He believes that clean teeth can not decay because the mechanism of decay in not present. He preaches of course eat well for health reasons (though he does no what eating well means I am sure) but he says it does not matter what you eat as long as you have clean teeth they will not decay. You talk about establishment, Dr Nara is very anti-establishment and preaches you can take of your own teeth with simple in-expensive solutions.
I think its great to preach perfecting 811 get great sleep, hydrate, enough calories, sun calories but for somethings maybe there are other ways to also make sure our teeth are in great shape and even though people are not perfect on the diet it won't matter if they follow these recommendations
I you noticed his recommendations are pretty much the same as Don's. Dry brushing, Rinsing with something to kill the bacteria (don suggests clove oil), good flossing technique and possibly using a irrigation unit especially if don't floss or have special issues like gum pockets.
It would be cool when you can listen to the podcast then you will know what I am talking about, love to have your feedback.
Possibly at the end of this we could update the LFRV pamphlet and 30 banana welcome tour with a link to oramedia website for people who want to not take a chance or have special conditions, or mentions Don's info. The only thing about clove oil is I do not know how effective it is compared to the others. Soon I will give you my list of recommendations based off all what I have seen would like your feedback :)
Permalink Reply by Mikey on Interesting video by Jameth Sheridan,
He obviously does not endorse fruitarian. Wonder what he does endorse. I find fruitarian gives 80 10 10 ers a bad rap and they get associated together. Dr Gaham does not promote fruitarianism and says the same that many are not health and that greens are important as Sheridan points out that fruit are not mineraly dense.
Permalink Reply by Juliana on thank-you everyone for posting their routines and what works best for them! I had a checkup at the dentist yesterday and all 4 of my wisdome teeth (which I didn't even know were out... funny how I didn't feel it) are beginning to decay... plus I have one cavity. It kinda bummed me out considering I brush twice a day... but obviously thats not enough on this lifestyle.... i'm going to take all your advice and see how this goes!
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