I have seen people post that it is unethical to use products that used animals in there production. Even to the extent of using a mule for plowing or taking honey from bees, “against their will.” It seems that the argument parallels animals used for creating a product to slavery.
I also know that many vegans have pets. A dog living in your apartment or house seems to be as far removed from its natural environment as a mule on a small organic farm. The only reason the animal is “OK” with this set-up is because of years of breading, breaking, and training that left an unnatural shell of its wild ancestors; the same with slavery. This conditioning makes it easy for them to be used for our companionship. Try raising a wild wolf, that you get from the wild as an adult, and you would understand this better.
Would not a dog catching a Frisbee or guiding a blind man be as bad as some raising elephants for the circus or caging giraffes in a zoo?
Permalink Reply by Rawfruitygoddess on Agreed,yes to rescues Justyn.
Permalink Reply by Sunshine on firstly captures too. allot of people mistreat animals especially corporations.
I have no idea why I am on here responding to this stuff. Ultimately, you will have two opposing view points. Some will take an ultra radical view point and attempt to browbeat people with their rhetoric. They will want to win an arguement. It is on every thread and most often it is the same people who have something to say about everything. Most often, the topics have nothing to do with HCLF raw lifestyle. I am all for healthy debate but some people seem to get down right insulting. They make statements about people just not getting the concept that they are speaking about. Ridiculous really. Just because someone has a differing opinion, it does not mean that they do not understand your stance and the reasons you are stating for your beliefs. It may just mean they do not agree with you.
Oh, completely factual information. Do not think that you are a great person for letting your cat run amuck outside as being an awesome animal person. Cats that are left to use nature as a hunting ground and litter box are sh##ing in other people's yards where their children play, which could spread disease. They are also wreaking havic on the indigineous small animal population in the area. It is just not a great idea. They have no real place in the ecosystem and no natural predators.
Permalink Reply by Sunshine on don't forget about toxoplasmosis 40% of people have this cat feces parasite
did not state toxoplasmosis specifically but it is the primary fecal parasite r/t cats. Although people can get it from raw meat especially porcine. Pregnant woman who have cats as pets are not even supposed to change the litter.
Permalink Reply by Mari Metsallik on My job is in cat's shelter so basically my work is saving cat's and it's really sad to see these comments. Cat's are not bad, dangerous, unnatural predators, their just as worth being here as all the birds and mice an everybody else. Do you ever think about WHY we have pets? Animals are here to teach us, humans, unconditional love. You can't look anything in materialistic view. This is just unfair to say stuff like " your cat is s***ting in my garden and giving my little child toxoplasmosis". All animals are worth living where they live, all living creatures are worth their freedom including cats. And a cat running free in nature having a GOOD life isn't in any way animal torture. Here where I live are so many cat's homeless and many of them injured and tortured and in winter there is -35 degrees here and cats are frost , so would I be a great person to just let all the cats die since they anyways don't belong here?
I will not agree that someone letting their cat run amuck in a neighborhood is a good thing. Never said that cats in themselves are bad. I said that cats taking a crap in my kids sandbox in my yard is not acceptable. Why should my child get a parasite because someone does not want to clean a litterbox. People not taking responsibility for their animals is the problem. Ferral cats do wreak havic on an ecosystem. They are not a native species and they have no natural predators. Would you consider it okay if I owned a pitbull or other powerful breed of dog that is known for it's propensity to be dog aggressive and liked to eat cats roam the neighborhood doing whatever it liked. I would assume that you would not mind if you or your free roaming cats were mauled and killed, maybe even eaten since you stated that you believe "All animals are worth living where they live, all living creatures are worth their freedom including cats." Because if you truly believe that all animals have the right to roam sans supervision, to kill as they will, then you would have to be okay with somone allowing their dog to kill the cats. Or say someone's pigs eating and uprooting your garden. The deer eating all your fruit trees or bushes.
There are responsibilities to having animals. When people are irresponsible, it creates problems.
Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on Ferral cats do wreak havic on an ecosystem. They are not a native species and they have no natural predators.
That's really the key statement here. This is fact, not opinion, so I hope everyone will really take time to consider this. If we love the natural world, then we ought to want it to be in balance, no?
I would assume that you would not mind if you or your free roaming cats were mauled and killed, maybe even eaten since you stated that you believe "All animals are worth living where they live, all living creatures are worth their freedom including cats."
Good point Gorilla. It is our selectivity in the animals we have chosen to protect from predators and allow to flourish that throws the ecosystems out of balance. We protect cats and dogs, but we kill a mountain lion if it comes within the city, we would not let a lynx or a bobcat roam free in our towns, nor would we allow wolves or coyotes to hunt in our streets. We trap and kill bears when they come too close. We remove all predators from our streets but one (cats) and our selectivity creates imbalance.
And for all to just consider something further... in the town I grew up in (Kimberley, British Columbia, Canada) bears and cougars were routinely trapped and either killed or relocated away from the city, and what was the result: the deer population grew exponentially within city limits. What was the solution to this problem? Mass slaughter of the deer!
http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/deer-trap-and-bolt
We humans must really begin to think clearly about the impact we have on the ecosystem when we begin meddling with animals.
Permalink Reply by Helen on 
Permalink Reply by James bananaman Bailey on resuce shelters. there are lots of animals being used, abused and dumped. they do need help. as vegans are we not more concious of the need to be considerate to the world around us and the life within it? i love dogs..all animals, but i really love dogs, i think there great fun! if you ever go to an animal shelter it is heart breaking. don't rescue the puppies/kittines though..they'll be fine! its the older animals that really need the help.
im running in the great north run, ( uks largest half marathon ) this year for a very small, volunteer run, no kill/euthanasia shelter. its main residants are kats with feline aids. other shelters just put them down! :(
everyone but one, ( who is veg ) who works at the shelter is also a vegan! :D
**if youd like to sponcer me send me a message and/or facebook request, as come march i'll be setting up online sponcership!!**
~ thanks, james :)
Permalink Reply by melonhead on As a vegan for many years now and a horse and carriage driver as well for many years, I have dealt with this philosophical conundrum many times. When it comes to "Free The Horses!!" or put them in harness and go to work, the fact is, I support working horses. Is it ideal that my horse has to work for her food? Maybe not, but is it fair we all have to work just to have a roof over our heads and food in our bellies? It can't be. A carriage horse that is "freed" (retired) is not looking at a great life. Draft horses are typically a little harder to ride because of their size, so they end up standing around out in pasture, with nothing to do- not the natural way one thinks of free horses, gallivanting along the prairie, going from one adventure to another. No, it's more like no vet care, you break something, you live with it or die type of life, basic survivalism. For all our faults, we humans have learned how to offer each other and animals a more comfortable existence, but in what ethical way are we there as a species? We're not- this is a very uncomfortable world to live in, if you follow world events or have your eyes open in any way. It is a weird, unhealthy planet we live on, hurling through space like billions of other pieces out in space- that is not the ideal of security or comfort to me. Working animals? Sure, I agree with that- finding people buried under rubble (rescue dogs), seeing eye dogs, carriage horses, yes. We are all in this together and I'd rather see a healthy, well-cared for and loved carriage horse than a mad cow with mad cow. Is it ideal? Maybe not, but what is? Taking care of animals that take care of us seems fair to me and again, much better than what some of the people in this world are doing to poor, defenseless animals.
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