This relates to veganism, i promise :P.....I'm an atheist and a big fan of the Hitch (Christopher Hitchens) and his book 'god is not great' hence the tittle. anyway, by looking at religious books and just the world around us, if there was a god, it would mean humans in general are more compassionate than him/her/it ( or the people that forged these religions). If people believe in a god that would send a person to hell to eternal damnation, or a god that answers your prayers, but leaves people starving, or a god that asks for animal sacrifice, especialy if this is the message many people are giving to impressionable children. how do they justify their compassion for animals (or say that its even necessary) and belief in god at the same time? i don't feel they can go together, because i don't believe god is compassionate. And that religion teaches that humans are worthless servants. also take this verse in leviticus for instance talking about sacrificing a live dove . Leviticus, 1:12
“And he shall cut it into pieces, with its head and its fat, and the priest shall lay them in order upon the wood that is on the fire upon the altar.”
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Permalink Reply by Sheila Monthe on also that animals are like objects
Permalink Reply by FurryGang on I agree!
That's huge subject but in my opinion religion in general is evil!
Permalink Reply by Sheila Monthe on yes, its sad though that so many people are guided by it and nothing else
Permalink Reply by Joni on Sheila, Wow, who has taught you these things? What terrible religion did you learn this from? If that were true, (what you shared) then I guess I'd feel the same way. But what if, there was another side to the story? Or a completely different story from the one you've been taught? What if you were painted a skewed picture? Kinda like how people in america are painted the picture from kindergarten up that you "need" meat and dairy for health. That's a lie. Unfortunately there are lots of lies. What if the God that was portrayed to you, was nothing at all like the one that you were told about? What if it's true that some religions (or maybe many) have unfortunately not taught all the truth either for whatever reason. What if the God of the Bible is SO Incredible, So beautiful and has developed a plan to save us . . . but we have a CHOICE!? That we have to choose to love and obey and trust Him. What if God will not force you to love Him? Because forced love is rape. It's sad the myth and lies that have been propagated and then enforced in the telling. Yet, what is true is lost - kinda like it is with the correct way of eating and living is. The God of the Bible I read has been passionate about reclaiming people and loving them, trying to get them to give up sin and accept His gift of salvation, His death on the cross for them. Instead people read one line out of a chapter of a book of the Bible and don't consider why the sacrificial service was instituted and how God has been hurt by US. (Like a parent with a child that has chosen to just live a sordid awful life) . Yet God still loves us. That He will NOT have an eternally burning Hell. That is NOT biblical. Yes there will be an end to sin and people who choose to continue to attach themselves to sin. But that is NOT an endless horrific burning thru eternity. That is a lie taught by false religions. We look at God as not caring about the sick, the starving etc. Who says He doesn't care? Because we think He is somewhere ambivilent to suffering? Thinkof it this way, I have four children. If one of them or all of them CHOOSES to live a crazy, hurtful life of drugs, illicit sex, gambling, violence etc. I cannot FORCE them to choose different. I can suggest, I can do everything I can to explain how important it is to not go down a wrong path. Ultimately, it is their choice. As a parent, I would have to painfully watch them destroy their lives. Say, they get in trouble with the LAW and I am willing to pay the fine/penalty for their wrongful act. But what if they REFUSE it. What if they tell me to butt out, that they don't need me, that they WANT to live this way. I can do nothing, but let them, continue on this crazy, hurtful course, and yes, their hurtful course, can and will hurt others along the way (because we are not islands) . Sheila, I am so sorry that you have been given this awful representation of God. There is so much more to this story. Are you open to seeing it through a different perspective or have you sealed your mind to anything different? The reason I ask is because there is a website, that has talks by a man named Ty Gibson - he was raised in a horrific, terrible sick situation - he shares that in these talks. But he also shares about a God that is so different than what he thought (because like you he felt God was just aloof and did not care - and based on his life and what he could see in the world he thought if there were a God that He must be sadistic). Here is a link to those talks: http://betterlifetv.tv/watch_videos_now.php?ProgID=4 Recently, I downloaded to FREE audio books onto my Iphone and I listened to them as I ran each morning or worked in the garden. One is The Great Controversy (this is probably the most incredible book I have ever ever read and/or listened to) - this book starts with the destruction of Jerusalen in AD 70 and goes through history to even here in America and where we are today. I promise you won't be able to put this down. The other book is Patriarches and Prophets - which is a biblical history from Eden and how sin entered through to just before the time of King David. I think this has had a huge impact on me. These three things and others have given me a totally different representation of the True and Only God. It's helped me to see just as in my personal daily life in what I choose to eat, how I live, sleep etc, that I have a Choice and a responsibility too. I see things very different now. I think it's worth at least a consideration. Hey if my mind wasn't open to learning about plant based nutrition - who knows where I'd be - mcdonalds?? Mercy!! The books can be downloaded free here: The Great Controversy - http://www.ellenwhiteaudio.org/en/gc/ Patriarchs and Prophets - http://www.ellenwhiteaudio.org/en/pp/ Its my hope you'll at least look into them.
Permalink Reply by pradtf on joni,
this is a decent post written with sincerity!
imho, you show that religion certainly doesn't need to poison everything ... or even anything.
i think perhaps a key is to remember that god created man in god's image and not the other way around. as such, humans have a responsibility to live up to that image and not make a perversion of it.
in friendship,
prad
Permalink Reply by Joni on pradtf, Absolutely. I agree with you. We were created in God's image and absolutely we need to stop making a perversion of it. Thanks for sharing that thought. Blessings, Joni
Permalink Reply by Sheila Monthe on i was raised in a christian household, so its not because my mind isn't open, its actually the complete opposite. okay so you compare the situation in the world to a parent with belligerent, unruly, self distracting children, which is fair. But what about if your children's behavior was hurting other innocent people? wouldn't you act on this. why wouldn't you help the starving, and people who just happened to be unlucky? The christian god was so incredible that he saw that the best way to educate his 'children' was around 2000 years ago to send his son to be sacrificed in the desert, in an uneducated civilization. The god of the bible is not incredible, is he incompetent if not evil? so are you saying that there's no hell? I've heard all my life how wonderful god is but he's really not, people really want to believe there is more meaning to life, that they have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. we dont want to believe that life is unfair, that we will die we will not be redeemed in heaven... etc. i do believe that god is real to you and you sincerly believe in him. im sure people do have very realistic hallucinations. if you're mind is so open why do you believe there has to be a god, and life has to have meaning, why no study budhism, satanism, those are religions, learn about why people are realy atheist. and the fact that god the creator of this great universe should care about who you sleep with and demand that you kill a bird for him (or sacrifice his son), well... anyway my point is if you are honest with yourself, you will realise that god wouldnt care for individuals if he'd ask for abraham (or whoever) to kill him son. on someone to take the life of an animal just because they themselves, comitted adultery. even the idea of jesus dying on the cross for YOUR sins. do you understand what im trying to say... how would you feel if someone had to kill you cos of something completely unrelated. i was mainly talking about animal cruelty. i hope this makes sense cos i havent reread what ive written
Permalink Reply by Joni on Sheila, I see what you are saying. It's just I believe you are looking it from the wrong angle. I understand even why you are too. There has been so much hurt done by people (not God) in the name of religion. But there is any thing - look at what high fat raw dieting has done to the raw diet world. Mis-information. Some people will not look into anything different.
But what about if your children's behavior was hurting other innocent people? wouldn't you act on this.
Sheila, if my child was of adult age, I couldn't stop him. He would choose and yes choose ot hurt people. Just like that man who shot up the theatre in CO at the Batman movie. Talk about satanism. It's interesting that the person who played the Joker in the last Batman Movie committed suicide. People make choices that we can't control. Yes, ultimately the law can control it by eventually catching the person and trying them and then punishing them. But that is exactly what people have trouble with God doing.
We feel He should be a santa claus God that fixes world hunger but can have no say in our personal lives. We want to live whatever way we want (play by our own rules and be our own god) and yet believe that God should do whatever we want.
It's important to remember too that Jesus wasn't just "killed". Jesus offered His life as the perfect sacrifice. He gave His life. He wasn't appeasing God. He was making a way for you and I to be saved eternally. But we have to act too. Humans by their choices (originally in Eden by Adam and Eve) have chosen to sin. To do our own thing. 'Then we shake our fists in His face and say "if you are real why don't you fix this right now". God has to allow us our choice. It isn't God that caused the Holocaust or the the nearly 1.25 million killed unborn babies each year. These are all our (human) choices.
Sheila, I know you've been hurt by all this. I deeply urge you to listen to those talks by Ty Gibson. I think it will give you God's perspective. Let me know what you think of them.
Yes, I believe that there will be the destruction of the wicked - but it is NOT biblical that it is an endless burning hell. Let me know what you think of Gibson's talks.
I care and I know God cares about animal suffering too. We caused that situation too.
Permalink Reply by Alexandra R. on Joni, I have been so confused about religion lately it is unbelievable. I'm not completely set-and-stone to say that there is no God, but I personally do not understand why a compassionate God would promote the death of his other creatures; such as in Genesis 9:2-3 "The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 sEvery moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And tas I gave you the green plants, I give you everything" or why it even suggests that a vegetarian/vegan's 'faith is weak' because they don't 'eat everything' as in Romans 14:2-3 “One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him"
After I became avid about veganism, these verses alone made me stray from Christianity. They bother me so much. SO maybe I believe in a God, but not Christianity? I'm so confused.
Honestly, native-American religion, where everything living and non-living has a spirit, seems the most appealing at this time in my life.
Permalink Reply by Joni on Alexandra, I do not pretend to have all the answers. But the bible says that the wages of sin is . . . death. Sin causes death. It is sin that caused the separation between man and animals. In ways this was a good thing to put a dread of us because if that wasn't the case then with sin in the world - animals (large ones) could easily cause problems.
God never wanted death. He isn't promoting. He is allowing all to play out - so all the world can see what sin does. Prayerfully we'll desire to stop this cycle soon.
The text in Romans is always misunderstood. This is not talking about a vegan being weak. It is talking about how the "gentiles" who were being given the gospel were eating meats/food offered to idols. To the Jews this was so inappropriate. Paul was just saying - lets not make a big deal about whether they are eating food offered to idols - lets concentrate of the weightier issues.
It is my belief that from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation - is the story of God working with humans (and their free choice) and his trying to help us desire something better and see His love. At the end of Revelation all things are made new. There will be no more pain, for animals or humans and we will all live together in peace.
I believe God is trying to get us to live closer and closer to the way things were in Eden. I believe the raw plant based diet is so important towards that goal.
I'm sorry that so called christianity has been a turn off. Many do not read the bible - they just go on what they've been told. Actually that happens in all people groups. I believe we need to study it out and pray for understanding. Just my thoughts.
Permalink Reply by Sade Olivia on @Alexandra R. I feel exactly the same way :( Once I removed meat from my diet and became more conscious and caring towards other creatures I began to question my religious beliefs and the beliefs of others which hardly seems fair, not that I blame the holy spirit for this or anyone else. I still pray sometimes but I am now even more tempted to pick and choose what I believe is (in my opinion) pure and Godly from the Bible. Lets hope there is a solution for us, because it is important and I feel that the closer I am to God as a spirit the closer I am to peace, happiness, security and stability in general.
@Joni that is a lovely way to look at it! ("I believe God is trying to get us to live closer and closer to the way things were in Eden. I believe the raw plant based diet is so important towards that goal.") That sentence alone helps me a lot! Thank you.
Permalink Reply by Sheila Monthe on but god doesnt have to exist :)
ednshell replied to Brandon B's discussion What else would you recommend to learn more about this lifestyle?
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