This relates to veganism, i promise :P.....I'm an atheist and a big fan of the Hitch (Christopher Hitchens) and his book 'god is not great' hence the tittle. anyway, by looking at religious books and just the world around us, if there was a god, it would mean humans in general are more compassionate than him/her/it ( or the people that forged these religions). If people believe in a god that would send a person to hell to eternal damnation, or a god that answers your prayers, but leaves people starving, or a god that asks for animal sacrifice, especialy if this is the message many people are giving to impressionable children. how do they justify their compassion for animals (or say that its even necessary) and belief in god at the same time? i don't feel they can go together, because i don't believe god is compassionate. And that religion teaches that humans are worthless servants. also take this verse in leviticus for instance talking about sacrificing a live dove . Leviticus, 1:12
“And he shall cut it into pieces, with its head and its fat, and the priest shall lay them in order upon the wood that is on the fire upon the altar.”
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Thanks Shananana (did I get the right number of nas? ;P ).
but as the energy that our bodies hold, energy that is given to us by our mothers, etc. and returns into the earth and back into the constant cycle of energy when we die, which is similar to their idea of a soul.
Also, quite easily relatable to notions of reincarnation. In some eastern traditions there are several simultaneous processes or 'cycles' (or wheels within wheels), and in Theosophy there are said to be three lines of evolution: spiritual, mental and physical. The physical would correlate with the energy/soul of our bodies returning and arising from the earth over and over again (as material, not personal energy - a very humanistic concept). The mental we see throughout history: rise of greek culture, fall, rise of roman culture, fall, rise of current culture - like a 'mental roller coaster' ;). And the spiritual is an "emanatory" one - from within without, or in scientific terms one might say from homogeneous to heterogenous (i.e. infinite substance gives rise to an individuality, for a time, then cycles back to native state, then gives rise to an individuality again). If viewed in terms of the births and deaths of beings, it can be seen that one could have this view of triple evolution (and thus of reincarnation) and simultaneously be an atheist (of various definitions).
And this theosophical idea is pure buddhism. :)
Haha, that's the right number of nas. Shananana is a weird old nickname of mine from middle school. (:
And that's basically what I referred to in my last sentence, but you put it in an even more descriptive way. (Buddhism, along with many American Indian beliefs, has always been one of the most intriguing and relatable religions.) I like how you brought up cycles in history, too, with the cultures. I've never really connected that with the concept of reincarnation. I've also never thought about atheism that way, until brought up in this post. But I did always hate to put the label on myself, because my beliefs amount to much more than just not believing in a god (or set of gods).
my beliefs amount to much more than just not believing in a god (or set of gods).
Ya, I think this is true for all atheists. It's such a wide-ranging word and can encompass so many details. Not believing in a personal God in no way reduces the thousand other ideas we may have (and share) about the nature of the universe, ourselves, etc.. :)
Cycles is one of the most interesting ideas to contemplate. We see cycles everywhere; all around us, and even within our lives (sleeping-waking, etc.). In a certain sense, things are 'reincarnating' all around us all the time; heck things are 'reincarnating' within us all the time :)
Very, very true. :)
great point man ! Our whole body they say has been reincarnated completely every 7 years .
I am not what I was and we are remade all the time . I am no longer the novice school boy , i recon that was a former life within this bodily life ?
a new day has dawned yes ! and always
i recon that was a former life within this bodily life?
So we see, not all 'religious ideas' need to be seen as supernatural.
We have cycles within our lives - sleeping/waking, new bodies every so many years, and the whole life itself is a longer cycle:
gathering of substance into designed-form (i.e. design recorded in dna), birth, growth and maturity, then a pinnacle, then decline until death, then the dispersing of form into homogenous substance... and as we know that substance is once more gathered into form(s) to run the process all over again in infinite variety. Evolution stipulates the progressiveness of forms, and thus this 'reincarnation' is progressively cyclical, always improving. :)
But perhaps even this progressive cyclical process of evolution may run in longer cycles we can barely glimpse, roughly analogous to our life-span cycle. Worth contemplating. Cycles do seem to be the ultimate process of Nature.
The core idea here is shared by both scientists and many religions. And people say they don't agree on anything ;)
Yes.cycles of order can easily be seen everywhere. Its an ordered place. Planets and seasons to sprouting of seeds blooming flowers..everything is a circle or cycle...no thing happens by chance...cycles man
The "God" of modern, organized Christianity does not exist.
" Ah yes, the effeminate wimpish troll suddenly looked familiar. That fat little worried impotent creature is the god of Religious Organized Nominal Christianity. Sadly, he had lost yet another beautiful victim to the fearsome, overwhelming power of Satan.
This ridiculous fantasy is the repugnant dribble foisted off today on the people of God. Every Sunday you can hear this same verbalized religious garbage, manufactured by the carnal mind, and fed to the gaggle of lobotomized religious proselytes who have not forsaken to gather themselves together.
If you have believed this stuff, get out of your church and run for your life. This is the deification of Satan, peddled by the hirelings who do not know God."
" Contrary to the thinking of Organized Christianity, God is the maker and sustainer of every created thing.
Satan is not a god. Satan is an angel, created and sustained by God. [...] Satan is the work of God, a hand-crafted instrument, a tool in the Master’s hand. [...] Satan is a created being who does the bidding and pleasure of his master with the alacrity of a trained circus seal. Though mighty in power and deed, yet he is held and controlled within the sovereign grip of God, and all his works contribute to the eternal purposes of God. [...]
The birth of God’s spiritual children requires that they be perfected in an environment of good & evil. This is the only climate that can instigate the birth of agape-love. If your life was awash in syrupy goodness, without the experience of evil, your spirit could never come to maturity.
Because of this, the administration of God’s evil is of extreme importance. To bring forth a mature spirit, evil must be displayed on the earth and applied to your life in precise doses and according to exacting schedules."
The terms, names, etc don't matter. That the names happen to correspond to the names and terms used in modern christianity does not matter. It is the concepts that matter. We assume the modern christian version of god, and in order to exist, he must be (1) a separate dude, hiding somewhere (2) not very powerful, since he can't even stop evil from happening (3) or apathetic, becuase if he is powerful, he's just letting evil happen - what a dick. Why do we fall for this hogwash? Why can't "God" be a powerful, mind-boggling intellectual concept. Why can't she simply be the pure consciousness that is the entire universe? We are all connected and all part of the universe, which is one living, breathing, thinking eternal being. These fake beliefs put forth by modern christianity are holding us back from our own spirituality.
It would be like if we stopped eating altogether because we thought SAD food was gross, and didn't even think to look for 811.
my bad (being flemish we made most of that it up)
come visit the holy blood in Brugges that we brought back from crusades , do it for the lulz
hey, ignore my previous comment, i didnt understand what you were saying before, but i agree with you, except i don't believe that humans or anything is spiritual.
Bravo. Bravo! :D
The OP asked:
“how do they justify their compassion for animals (or say that its even necessary) and belief in god at the same time?”
It appears to us that this question has been addressed by a number of well composed posts. What we try to do with religious discussion on 30BaD is as much as possible to keep it related to veganism and animal rights. While I personally enjoy theology and religious discussion, and while I recognize we're all passionate about our most deeply held beliefs, it does become easy to digress into theological debate, and at a certain point this becomes a distraction from the primary reason we have all gathered here. It's a fine-line we walk in discussions of religion and politics, and I want to thank you all for being respectful of one another in this one. :)
We wish to thank everyone for their thoughtful posts, and we hope the OP is happy with the way her discussion has gone. We'll now close the discussion from further comment and leave it here for all to read at their leisure.
The 30BaD Team