just before anyone assumes something .. this post is not intended to question or debate veganism. if you want to do that, this discussion is not the place and neither is 30BAD ...
these are some questions from my recent blog post which you can read in full .. http://www.30bananasaday.com/profiles/blogs/doing-it-for-the-animal...
here are some questions that I asked readers at the end of my post:
now for some questions for you ethical vegans out there ....
1. if killing other creatures is "wrong" why do we see examples of "specieism" in nature?
(for example : a mountain lion who kills a deer or a bear who eats a fish ..) there is a video on youtube of a pack of lions attacking a baby water buffalo who is part of a group of about 100 water buffalo. They get the water buffalo, drag him into a nearby swamp, and begin to nip at him (all while a crocodile is nipping the buffalo's behind) .. no joke! in a shocking turn of events .. the herd of water buffalo come back and attack the lions in an attempt to save the baby water buffalo .. to see the epic battle and find out who wins, watch it here...
but obviously the herd understands what is going on and wants to help the baby! they do not just let him get dragged away by the lions .. they fight back! amazing! so if we're going to be ethical vegans, we can't always "learn from nature .. "
2. do you think the lion (or any other predator) has any feelings of remorse or guilt towards the animal that they slay ?
Animals have been shown to express and feel emotions. I just read an article in TIME magazine where 2 animals ( I forgot what kind, maybe chimps?) had formed a very close friendship throughout their lives and when one of them died, the other mourned for several weeks. He was not social and displayed signs of depression. We know that animals also feel fear. From the buffalo video we know that animals feel connection to others (within their species anyways) . From several stories where a mother has taken in a child from another species or two animals of similar (or not) age from different species become best friends (like a dog and a cat, or a dog and a bird, or a human with a wolf ;) we know that animals can feel love for members outside of their species.
So, in nature, do you think the predator has feelings of remorse about killing his prey in order to survive? do you believe that a fox, lion, tiger, snake, etc. has the cognitive capacity to understand that he is causing suffering to another being but deems is necessary for the survival of himself and his own species? what DO you believe about this ?
3. Earlier in this post I talked about how most of the time (99.99% in America I would guess ;) the choice to eat meat is not life or death. But what if it was? In a hypothetical situation where the only thing to eat was the meat of a non human animal ( NO BUTS! just answer the question - or dont, if it makes you uncomfortable or you sincerely just dont know), would you slay the animal if that meant you would survive? Would you die so that you did not have to take the life away from the animal? What if the survival of the entire human species depended on killing animals to survive (because again, hypothetically there is nothing else) .. would you choose speceism? Would you choose that the survival of our human species is more important than the comfort and free lives of the species we are murdering?
and finally, 4. In the grand scheme of the things inside the limitless ever expanding never ending never existing void of the holographic universe ;) ..... do you really believe there is a "right and wrong" or that this concept is a construct of the human mind - of the human's blessed and cursed power of the ability to assign meaning to things, to choose, and to have belief systems.
there you go people. MUCH LOVE ALWAYS!
go eat some banananas! or radishes. or arugula. whatever tickles your pickle. although i wouldn't recommend those ...
peace and light forever :)
the divine in me honors the divine in you :) namaste!
1. This is why I think people use the word "natural" too often.... what is "natural" or "in nature" is not always "what is good." We should never confuse the two. We don't know what is going on in the mind of a lion. We shouldn't model our decisions based on what others do, especially animals who, although DO have feelings and emotions, clearly operate on an instinctual level to a much greater degree than humans do.
2. I have no idea... it doesn't really seem like it, but as I said above, I have no idea what a lion is thinking.
3. I honestly don't know, and IMO these sorts of questions are irrelevant. So what if the answer is yes? And so what if it's no? Does either answer diminish the 'vegan cause'? As neither situation actually applies to any of us, and applies to VERY FEW people in the world, (if any at all), I think not.
4. In the grand scheme of things, perhaps right and wrong don't actually exist, but then again neither do these words, me, you, or anything we see for that matter. My point is, that nobody actually operates on a consistent basis in the "grand scheme of things" because we live in THIS world as human beings and the only things we understand are what we can process logically or sense. I think this is more of a religious question more than anything. For people belonging to a certain religion I would imagine the answer to this question is "yes, right and wrong do exist in the scheme of the universe." For me it's no (however, when having a conversation about veganism specifically, I think this is another irrelevant question even though people try to use it as an escape constantly... if you say right and wrong don't exist you might as well stay out of ANY moral debate.... you might as well stop talking.)
thankyou for your input and your opinions :)
as you can see from the beginning it is stated that this post is not to debate veganism :) just a friendly discussion because i find these topics interesting .. thanks for the comment!
1. if killing other creatures is "wrong" why do we see examples of "speciesism" in nature?
I know a lot of people don't pay much attention to what the bible has to say these days but I do think that it provides an interesting answer to this question. Apparently in the beginning there was no death at all, even among animals - people were vegan (see Genesis 1:29 for mans first diet). Then because of sin the whole creation (animals included) was subjected to decay, which is a state clearly seen simply by looking around at all the various forms of evil in the world including animals killing each other. The book of Isaiah foretells of a time when animals will again be at peace with each other and "the lion shall lie down with the lamb." So according to these things we can then answer your question as to why there is speciesism in nature and still hold on to our assumption that all killing is wrong without any logical contradiction.
thanks for your input :)
Very well said, Sam. I agree, it's all about human's having a choice.
I would definitely choose fasting over eating meat.
I think it would be healthier to in the end ;)
cool response ! thanks!
so you know actual cannibal families?
the ethical vegan thinks 'who gives a f***' you're sofa bound and on cholesterol medication... you ain't no caveman. - Sam
4 no right no wrong see restorative justice beyond good and evil http://www.scribd.com/doc/72099926/Restorative-Justice-Rosenberg-Be... and know that all life shares the universal intrinsic needs behind our motives values inspirations desires and wants. empathization/expressionizing, we do. in relative terms never 'truly' such thing as: David wolfisms 'best day ever'(we could make a list of all the absolutist ignoramusia that has emanated from his mouth) sure their could exist close to extreme opposites within duality but never exist but close at different percentages deeply chaotic and random in complexity with movements of electrons bouncing and spinning along irregular paths, all so indeterminable and beyond the senses of our mere comprehension. the relief is in acceptance of not knowing and taking in newness on the daily at your own ease to expand grow and integrate into practice.
1 because there are balances of power the important thing is to protect yourself and . we have disturbed allot certainly though and it endangers our future potential if not chosen to be stopped. species-ism is more about the manipulation and discrimination of one systematically against another, i'd think . the lion and their prey form balances w/ nature just as we with our trees.
i agree it is quite sad and dangerous to our dear planet :) thank you for your comment!