The facts about spanking:
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See my other comment...theft it something I think we can all agree is wrong, too, but you told me over there it's "different" when it happens to a child (eg take away his phone or his video games or whatever). I do not understand how you came to that conclusion. Why is theft circumstantially justifiable, and hitting isn't? Tell me the premise upon which your distinction is based...
Telling a kid WHY he's getting hit makes absolutely no difference.
I disagree, based on not only my own personal experience, but that of every kid I knew growing up and a few I know whose parents spank at present.
Your certainly never going to convince anyone here that hitting children is ok.
I might. Just as you might convince the other side. Strong-willed as most of us are here, though, I doubt it, on both counts.
Thankfully several here have already spoken up in favor of the practice. All who did have also expressed that they agree that abuse is wrong and that spanking must be done in proper context. Why must you judge the way others parent? That's all I'm saying here, since as I've already mentioned it's not a practice I partake in. Live and let live.
Spanking, just like any other punishment, must be done only when appropriate, coupled with an explanation, and never done out of anger. We've established already that punishments all are unpleasant and that it makes sense for them to be that way since they're meant as deterrents. Punishments generally consist of things we wouldn't ever do to a best friend, partner, etc. I find that most who demonize spanking do so either because they've heard horror stories of abusive beatings (which aren't spankings, btw,) or because they latch onto the "hitting is wrong" mantra...Theft is wrong, too, so better never take away a toy or privilege. Slavery is wrong, so better never force a kid to do chores. The line of disapproval next to spanking seems rather arbitrary, don't you think?
I feel very strongly that someone has to speak up for the kids that are getting hit. I don't want to judge other parents. But for a kid who is learning that hitting is the right way to deal with unwanted behavior, I feel that will affect their place in society as an adult.
I don't get why you keep bringing up 'theft' as in punishing a child by taking away their cell phone. I can't compare taking away a cell phone and hitting a child. One of them involves hitting somebody. I can't get away from that.
There are so many other methods of parenting that are peaceful and effective, it just makes no sense to me to be promoting a violence based practice. Just because you have never seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. And hitting DOES HURT - you still haven't acknowledged that it is painful to get hit. It causes pain to a human being that you are blessed with protecting.
I find with my kids that bad behavior on their part is most often a need not getting met.
Absolutely. And not just with kids, but adults too :)
Stefan is my favourite speaker on philosophy. Spanking just makes criminals in the end and causes the future generations pain while the adults feel like they have power and have a purpose in their life by raising children properly. It's just plain silliness.
School also acts similarly just instead of spanking you get punished for things that are complete BS. Being forced to do work that you do not have a choice whether you want to do and then get punished if you do not do your homework on your own free time with no care about how you feel about it, is pure insanity.
I guess I've never seen your claim about kids becoming criminals come into fruition, but interesting idea.
I value the discipline I received in school because it enabled me to develop valuable workplace skills that allow me to earn an income that affords me time and resources to pursue things I really enjoy, and I do also enjoy my job. There are many others who feel the same. Discipline and work ethic are valuable societal skills.
Discipline and work ethic are valuable societal skills.
Nobody doubts this. What we debate though, is the method of teaching these skills to children. I was never spanked and I have an extremely high work ethic, self-discipline and a strong sense of duty. These were simply taught using other means.
The point: obviously, by countless examples of those who were not spanked and yet developed these skills, we can conclude, logically, that spanking is not a requirement for their development.
There's a right and wrong way for many things...
Kiwis aren't a necessary part of my diet, but they also can be used or abused. Eat the peel and yeah, kiwis are nasty little things. Take the peel off and they're palatable. There's a right and wrong way. Same with spanking. There's an appropriate and inappropriate way, and I think we at least agree that ABUSIVE hitting is wrong. Abusive hitting isn't what proper spanking is.
One parent spanks and another does not. No need for those parents to judge each other if both raise good children.
The discipline comment was in response to Robert K's comment about being punished at school.
Nice use of analogy. Allow me to counter ;)
Foods of many sorts can be eaten to provide the basic short term requirements of the body (the immediate 'solution' to the problem). Certain foods, however, establish a long-term holistic balance of health in the body, while other foods may satisfy that short term requirement, but will fail to provide long-term health, instead slowly and secretly developing disease.
Let food=parenting methods, and the analogy is clear.
The 'disease' being developed (maintained through generations) is a general apathy towards violence and a general ignorance towards its results (physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, culturally, societally, etc.), and this apathy and ignorance are demonstrated in several posts in this thread.
This does not mean that spanking is the sole cause of this apathy, but rather that it is both an effect of it, and a cause of its furtherance.
Certain foods cause allergic reactions in some and not others; different parenting methods work for different families.
Yet just as there is a species specific diet, so too may certain parenting methods be found to be more optimal than others, species-wide. Are not parenting methods among animals found to be species specific?
"different parenting methods work for different families" sounds quite similar to the ol' omnivore diet arguments ;)
Not when you're talking kiwis versus plums...