Do YOU spank your children???

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on August 13, 2012 at 3:19pm

He's showing yet another example of kids being spanked/punished realistically and being better for it, while those who were never punished with more than "words of correction" turned out snotty and arrogant.  I've seen many examples of this myself.

And I've seen many examples of the exact opposite. Hmm... interesting.

Don't you think, on some level, that having violence routinely perpetuated against us as children plays at least some role in the prevalent apathy and 'numbness' or 'unconscious acceptance' of violence in other aspects of our world?

Otherwise, stepping out into the real world for the first time as an 18 year old is an extremely harsh wake-up call into the reality of adult life.

This is based on a false premise that spanking (and similar parenting habits) is the only way to prepare someone for adult life. But since we see that non-spanked kids can also grow up just fine (despite your 'many examples'), we can conclude that spanking is not necessary for this result.

The other thing about your statement here is this: the very fact that an 18 year old is just encountering the so-called 'real world' at 18 demonstrates a failure on the part of the parents, regardless of how the 18 year old deals with the experience. It says that those parents did nothing to introduce that child to reality while he/she was in their care. A child should be shown the real world much, much younger than 18 and taught over years and through the loving care and guidance of his/her parents how to navigate that world. By the time they're 18 there should be no shock whatsoever if the parents have done their job.

I don't care for the government getting involved in parenting either... I'd just like parents to show a little more care and morality in their approach to their own children.

Permalink Reply by Jade on August 13, 2012 at 5:18pm

the very fact that an 18 year old is just encountering the so-called 'real world' at 18 demonstrates a failure on the part of the parents, regardless of how the 18 year old deals with the experience.

No it doesn't.  When I say "real world", I mean leaving the house.  It has to happen sometime; call it what you will.  Kids enter the real world when they leave the house for the first time and are 100% responsible for bills, job, etc. that an adult has. 

Maybe in your parenting style, spanking isn't necessary. Maybe for others, it is.  Point is it's not violent, doesn't hurt kids, and is not abusive. 

Don't you think, on some level, that having violence routinely perpetuated against us as children plays at least some role in the prevalent apathy and 'numbness' or 'unconscious acceptance' of violence in other aspects of our world?

No.  In fact, seems most kids I know who grew up with harsh parents are some of the most caring, nurturing people ever--not violent at all. Sorry you are assuming that we are all violent because we were spanked!  Please don't.  We're likely more successful, as this article suggests:  http://www.parentdish.com/2010/01/05/researcher-says-a-little-spank...

Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on August 13, 2012 at 7:07pm

Kids enter the real world when they leave the house for the first time and are 100% responsible for bills, job, etc. that an adult has.

Some of us learn all about these things well before leaving the house, so there is no shock, just a smooth transition. That's the point I was making.

Point is it's not violent, doesn't hurt kids, and is not abusive.

I'm going to have to adamantly disagree with you here. If it didn't hurt the child, how would it 'deter' them? But I can see we likely have very foundational differences in philosophy, so will, in the end, likely need to simply agree to disagree.

Sorry you are assuming that we are all violent because we were spanked!

Strawmen arguments have little effect. I did not say that you're all violent, but simply observed the correlation that a society in which spanking is acceptable is also a society in which many other forms of violence are acceptable, and suggested a possible causal link between the two. Accepting (through apathy, desensitization, etc.) is not the same as being violent, but it does allow violence to flourish.

In fact, seems most kids I know who grew up with harsh parents are some of the most caring, nurturing people ever--not violent at all.

So, let me get this straight... in your experience, those kids who grew up with harsh parents became caring, nurturing people and those who grew up with non-harsh parents grew up to be arrogant and selfish? It's quite interesting, as I'm unable to make similar estimations based on my experience. I suppose we'll keep on living our lives based on these very different experiences then.

Now, about the article you attached. First, I find it interesting that above you say: "Studies are done to say anything", and then you use a study to support your argument. Just sayin'. It's interesting.

Second, you may want to read the articles you use to support your case more carefully before using them. Your 'supporting' article starts out with Gunnoe's view that spanking may be beneficial for "success", but then it presents this:

The press release says researchers from Harvard, Duke and several other universities interviewed roughly the same number of people as Gunnoe, and concluded that spanking 1-year-olds "leads to more aggressive and less sophisticated cognitive development in the next two years."

The majority of adults were spanked when they were kids, he tells the paper, but now even grandparents think smacking kids on the rear is unacceptable.

"It can very easily cross over from a discipline in a calm, measured way to an out-of-control moment," he says. "Parents always think it's in a controlled manner, but clearly it's not. Obviously it's not going to harm every kid, but the potential is there and it isn't worth the risk."

So, all your article does is present two opposing views, both backed by "research", and actually the view I share seems to be backed by more research than the view you share (yours is presented here by one voice, my view is countered by "Harvard, Duke and several other universities" and another voice. It really does nothing to strengthen your argument.

Furthermore, the article with more information on Gunnoe's study (linked to in the article you attached), also says:

But the study also revealed that children who are smacked after the age of six were more likely to exhibit behavioural problems, such as being involved in fights.

The study seems to derive the idea that children who are spanked do better because in high school some of them (depending on the age in which they were hit) do better on tests and want to go to university.

Now, is this really what we call "success" in life - doing well on highschool tests and wanting to go to university?

The findings are elaborated upon:

Teenagers in the survey who had been smacked only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

This, I assume is the part you would use to back your argument. But you better make sure to stop the spanking precisely at age six (and then, I wonder, what parenting style would be adopted?). ;)

The article continues:

Those who had been smacked between seven and 11 fared worse on negative behaviour but were more likely to be academically successful. Teenagers who were still smacked fared worst on all counts.

So their idea is that its beneficial to hit kids, but only when they're super young. And their measure of the "success" produced is drawn from how these kids do on highschool tests. Clearly the 'negative behavoir' is less important than the 'academically successful', wouldn't you say? ;)

Now, what many, many of us have come to realize as life progresses is just how meaningless highschool was in the big picture of life. Having left it behind we begin to trace out who we are and to grow as human beings. I laugh when I look at what I thought in highschool - my views were so undeveloped! I've spent my adult life doing many things, one of which was actually being quite "successful" in the standard american version of the term (university, high paying job, etc., etc.), another has been traveling the world, studying philosophy, having relationships, and on and on... and what I value most are the relationships, the love, the joy, the learning and growth experienced... but certainly the measure of my success is best established by my grade 9 algebra tests and my views on university held in grade 10. ;)

Quite weak arguments posed in this article, overall.

Permalink Reply by Tony on August 14, 2012 at 6:45am

Whoa... you sure sound like hot head Jon. I'm gonna pass on answering those 5 pointless questions that you asked.

Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on August 14, 2012 at 7:26am

Haha... ya, perhaps a bit too passionate about this issue. But, excuses and justifications to physically, emotionally and psychologically harm those who are not only incapable of defending themselves, but who we are meant to be protecting and nuturing, certainly puts a little fire in my belly ;)

Permalink Reply by Jade on August 14, 2012 at 3:22pm

Obviously.  i now realize that this board is extremely liberal, and I see your/that viewpoint as..well, extremist.  Thinking that spanking is bad comes from the same mindset as thinking dodgeball is bad...if I recall, they banned that in several schools years ago.  To me, it makes no sense to raise your child in a bubble (by banning either of the above). 

I'm not even going to counter your points on the article because you took a bunch of things out of context and made it clear you were already convinced that no point of view is right but your own.  The point in adding it on was really just a small illustration of benefits, WHEN DONE CORRECTLY (the main point you missed).  You mentioned opposing views in it...not really, read it again.  They're saying there's a right time and a wrong time.  Anyways, I'd take both sides of the coin over a propaganda video any day...

Parents have to make the judgement call on when spanking is appropriate.  The ages in the article are common sense if you're a parent; it's an average.  The right time to start is whenever the child realizes that he or she has a choice of actions to take and can recognize that he or she has done wrong.  When is that time, exactly?  It's different for each child, but it's generally the line we draw for ALL punishments, not just spanking. 

Since you weren't spanked as a child, please leave it to those of that were to decide if it ever hurt us, abused us, etc.  It didn't.  By "hurt", I mean permanently.  If we use your definition, then ALL punishments "hurt" children. 

I did not say that you're all violent,

Then don't attack all of us.  "In our world" is a pretty big segment of the population to be talking of: "Don't you think, on some level, that having violence routinely perpetuated against us as children plays at least some role in the prevalent apathy and 'numbness' or 'unconscious acceptance' of violence in other aspects of our world?"

And no, spanking isn't violent.  It stings for a second, but so does being grounded, timeout, etc...each in their own way. 

By the way, I'm not even a true advocate of spanking in particular--but I do strongly support it as a parenting method for those I've seen it work wonders for--especially when "words of correction" do nothing after the 5 year old runs into the street for the 15th time.  It's worrisome that there are people out there who are seemingly bent on trying to dictate parenting situations of others they know little about. 

Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on August 14, 2012 at 7:03pm

Thinking that spanking is bad comes from the same mindset as thinking dodgeball is bad...

I quite enjoy dodgeball. So long as the participation in dodgeball is voluntary, the comparison doesn't hold up. A child isn't volunteering to be spanked as part of a game.

they banned that in several schools years ago...

That's silly. Of course, participation shouldn't be forced, and perhaps that was the issue (?).

and made it clear you were already convinced that no point of view is right but your own...

Yes, I do believe my point of view here is right, or shall I say, 'more right', or 'more ethical'.

Since you weren't spanked as a child, please leave it to those of that were to decide if it ever hurt us, abused us, etc.  It didn't.  By "hurt", I mean permanently.  If we use your definition, then ALL punishments "hurt" children.

As the video above explains and as many of the linked to articles, and many scientific studies show, the level of "damage" done through physical 'punishment' far exceeds the 'sting' of a slap. The effects are far more deeply felt emotionally and psychologically - the latter being perhaps the most subtle but also the most permanent and scarring.

My lack of experience with being spanked in no way diminished the scientific evidence of its harm. I've also never been corralled into a cage and exploited for breastmilk, but that doesn't keep me from recognizing the wrong in dairy farming. Personal experience is not a requisite of understanding.

"In our world" is a pretty big segment of the population to be talking of...

Actually its the entire segment. Unless there's another planet I'm not aware of ;)

Aside from taking my statement as a personal attack, did you give it serious consideration? We do live in a society that is numbed to all kinds of violence... when and how does that numbing occur, what are the factors, and could early experience with those who love us the most physically hurting us possibly have some role to play? It's a worthy question.

...especially when "words of correction" do nothing after the 5 year old runs into the street for the 15th time.

But have you considered that there is an underlying reason that a child would be acting in such a way that may be related to other attributes of parenting that may be lacking? Not spanking must coincide with adoption of many other parenting techniques that serve to prevent such occurrences from happening due to greater understanding, respect, common sense, etc., from the child as they develop.

My 5 year old nephew, for example, would simply not do that, and the reason he wouldn't do that is not because he'll get spanked if he does, but because he's been adequately taught what it means to carry himself as a responsible human being and he can see how stupid and dangerous running into the street would be. And this has been accomplished through communication and care.

You see, the parenting techniques that make spanking obsolete do so because they help the child develop a psyche that provides them no reason or desire to lash out in a way that would upset their parents or others or put themselves or others in danger. When people imagine that not spanking means just letting your kids run wild and be irresponsible, it's only because they haven't considered the other parenting techniques that come in to replace spanking, with far more effective methods.

In watching my nephew grow up I can see that instead of becoming responsible out of not wanting to be punished, he's becoming responsible out of admiration for his responsible parents. When he does something "wrong", they simply talk to him about it, and reason it through with him. Often, if he's wanting to do something we don't approve of, we'll simply explain to him why we personally don't do that thing and then he sees and understands why, and through his respect and admiration for us, as positive examples, he decides for himself not to do that thing - he wants to be like us, and we don't do it, so why would he do it? That's elementary, foundational reasoning for a child.

This is, of course, a far more involved parenting style than many, because it can require one to stop doing whatever they are doing and address the child in the moment. It requires that one be thoughtful and mindful of the child, but even more importantly to be thoughtful and mindful of their own actions, since it is their example that is all important.

I tend to see this as a far more productive method, as it is not reward based or punishment based, but simply based on positive role models and the natural tendency of developing children to admire their role models and mimic them. There's no coercion involved, no punishments or rewards based on behavior. Just an embracing of the natural ways in which children develop and a conscious effort to nurture that growth.

Permalink Reply by Jade on August 17, 2012 at 6:32am

But have you considered that there is an underlying reason that a child would be acting in such a way that may be related to other attributes of parenting that may be lacking?

Of course.  But stubborn kids (like the 6-year-old me) didn't care.  There were times when nothing else worked, and I never felt "hurt or humiliated" in the long run.  Long run?  I'm glad it was done. 

Thinking that spanking is bad comes from the same mindset as thinking dodgeball is bad...

I quite enjoy dodgeball. So long as the participation in dodgeball is voluntary, the comparison doesn't hold up. A child isn't volunteering to be spanked as part of a game.

People have made arguments that dodgeball is harmful to kids because certain kids often get singled out and are "humiliated".  There are studies and propaganda videos out there, just like the spanking ones, supporting that dodgeball is humiliating.  After looking at the big picture, my own personal experiences, and the evidence to the contrary, I see both points as extremist. 

Spanking is one of many effective parenting methods out there that does not harm children and can be used "as part of a balanced breakfast" in the overall scape of parenting. 

Permalink Reply by Georgia on August 13, 2012 at 4:41pm

Tony, not spanking and not having boundaries are two totally different things! Violence begets violence. You can model healthy boundaries without violating a child's right to safe physical boundaries. If you saw someone hitting an animal I'm sure you'd be moved to intervene, so why would it be ok to hit a child? It's not.

Permalink Reply by Tony on August 14, 2012 at 10:43am

You're right.

Permalink Reply by Craig Plunkett on August 13, 2012 at 8:09pm

Coercion cannot instill virtue. What corporal punishment reads to the human is "Be not guided by your understanding, but rather be guided by the most base part of your humanity: the fear of personal pain."

Permalink Reply by Georgia on August 13, 2012 at 8:16pm

Well said Craig!

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