3 years and 8 months 811 raw vegan – Teeth Issues

Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.

So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.

So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.

Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;

100% raw for the entire time on this diet, no exceptions
1 non-vegan raw meal (salmon) 3 months into the diet
Majority mono fruit meals from the beginning for morning and lunch
Majority one fruit plus greens for dinner
Averaged about 3000-3500 calories over the years and really couldn’t have force fed myself anymore without gagging.
I’m 5’10”, 48kgs for 2.5 years up to current weight of 56kgs
Quantity of greens has varied over the years from none for a couple of 2 to 3 month periods early on to a couple of heads of lettuce a day. Over the last 1.5 years I’ve eaten more than I’d have liked to.
Last year I had 6 small binges on raw gourmet over the period of a year. A binge for me was having it for dinner and lunch for a few days in a row so nothing that major. This was in Bangkok at Rasayana which a lot of you long termer 811 travelers will be familiar with and is known for being light on the fat/nuts. I also had it a couple times the year before in Hawaii and Canada but hardly worth mentioning.
Spent 2.5 years travelling in the tropics following the fruit/durian trail with plenty of money (no stress) eating the best tropical fruits in the world. Best time of my life! I’ve been back in Melbourne for 4 months.
Any fruit that was found to be not quite ripe I have always discarded.
I rarely have eaten much acidic fruit as I don’t really like it.
I eat organic as much as is available.
Plenty of sunshine and my current vitamin D level is 314nmol/L (125ng/ml) which in Australia is over 4 times the normal level with no supplementation
The first year sleep was disrupted by playing in bands but since quitting music at the end of 2009 I’ve been averaging 12 hours in bed with probably 10 of that being asleep. The whole time in the tropics I went to bed religiously with the sun and rose with the sun.
Was diagnosed with severe B12 deficiency (86pmol/L) in March this year and have aggressively treated it with shots ever since and my levels are now high (1476pmol/L).
I’m no athlete but I travelled with my bike and have gotten plenty of exercise over the years. I currently run 3 times a week and have been doing so for the last 6 months and workout at least 3 times a week which has always been body weight but have recently joined a gym.
Water intake has varied but never been under 2 liters a day and on average around 3 liters over the years. Hydration level of 76% was measured before fasting at the end of 2010.
Did a 35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama.
Have a history of recreational drugs and alcohol but nothing out of the ordinary for Australia. Basically just the 20 something party lifestyle.
Went vegan 15 years ago at 23 years old, initially a fruit based raw diet for 6 months and then to cooked vegan until 30 then added fish back into my diet till 34 and then 811.
Past dental health; great teeth as a child with only a few fillings in my baby teeth. No fillings in my adult teeth that I can recall. At 17 my dentist said he could put my teeth in a catalog they were that perfect. At 19 had wisdom teeth pain for a few months but ignored it. At 25 wisdom teeth pain came back and finally went to the dentist to find I had compacted wisdom teeth. This had pushed all my teeth closer together slightly twisting some especially in the bottom front. Had wisdom teeth out but required no other dental work. Have had no pain or sensitivity till May last year when my tooth crumbled at 37 years of age. Started getting a dull ache in my left side of the jaw in March this year and increased sensitivity. Got to a point a month ago where I was having trouble chewing even a salad so 3 weeks ago I went to the dentist. Earlier this week my second molar crumbled.
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.

I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.

Thank you,

Stephen

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.

Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.

As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.

I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!

So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by PK on June 19, 2012 at 2:55am

@Rawbert,

This is true in some cases. Especially for people with any history of eating disorder. IF bulimic and or eating acid forming foods, teeth can decay from the outside and or become transparent.

But, even on 811, if not consuming enough calories and nutrients, osteoporosis and internal tooth problems can occur that people may not be aware of until it is too late. Sometimes it also happens that the nerves and pulp may die right away, and the person may never experience pain.

BTW, osteoporosis and oral health go hand in hand in many cases.

Peace, PK

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 18, 2012 at 8:55am

Did you have a history of anorexia Ash? How long was that for?

I remember in 2002 cycling across Australia. I forgot my tooth brush and was eating sticky vegan muesli bars and jam sandwichs for weeks with no brushing. Looking back, I really abused my teeth and its a wonder I have any at all. I remember as a kid stealing blocks of chocolate and eating them for breakfast and lying to my Mum that I had brushed my teeth. Then I got into raw foods and would literally eat 1kg bags of hard nuts like macadamia, almonds. I would crack walnut/almond shells with my teeth. I got some sensitivity over the years from that for sure. Since Ive cut the nuts WAY back my teeth aint as sensitive but Ive still got bruxism and an over bite that the dentist said he could 'fix' for 15k. It would require breaking my jaw and resetting it with some wires. I think I will pass as he said 'there is a risk of permanent pain after the surgery..'.

So moral of the story is that your not alone Ash, EVERYBODY that has teeth seems to have problems at some point judging by how hard it is to get a dentist appointment these days. Often haters can pretend that you're the only person that has teeth problems but the reality is that people have problems with their teeth but they just don't talk about it. Its like I had chrons for years but never got any help cos I was embrassed. My Dad had bulimia but I was the only person he ever told. You are an expressive person and share your issues. 99% of average people don't have that level of expressiveness unfortunately so you never see whats really going on.

Permalink Reply by Ashley Hamilton on June 18, 2012 at 1:25pm

Yes, i did. In junior high, though the anorexic thoughts bled over into 811 for a while. Being expressive about my thoughts is my personality. Glad to share, its a relief and i am getting so much support.

I know im not alone. i know that people on ALL diets have teeth problems. I get it. And i understand that there is a BIG pool of factors that have a play. It was just coincidental that many of us long termers are running into teeth issues at the same time. It's also weird to me that my teeth 2 months in were fine, and then got progressively worse in 4 years, though in the 17 years before that they were generally the same. I have never had any cavities or dental work done. And then all this decay just happens in 4 years, that coincides with my 811 experience. I mean im pretty open minded - it may be purely coincidental - but its something to take note of nonetheless. Again, not here to blame diet, but i still think that it may be ONE factor in the bigger pool of factors. And i just want to make sure people are reminded to take care of their teeth ASAP! ;)

Permalink Reply by fruitsandnumbers on June 20, 2012 at 7:07pm

wow, harley! please let me express once again my profoundest admiration for your person! you enlighten me with every word of yours! thank you for being the wonderful person you are!

i humbly bow before thee, my master in all things!

Permalink Reply by PK on June 19, 2012 at 2:50am

@Ashley,

Thanks for sharing your story and what you learned to do to improve your symptoms.

In a later reply to this discussion, Esperanza I believe, researched that some primates floss their teeth with greens like parsley (cilantro and mint might work too) and or their hair, and they eat greens post a sugary fruit meal.

This may clean the teeth and or have an alkalizing effect on the mouth.

I concur that people should not become over pure and use common sense. Some of our members are reluctant to go to doctors, but I say that if having an emergency go, and if one needs the medication, take it. It is my opinion, that doing a proper diet can eliminate the need of about 90% of doctor's services, but we still need them 10% of the time.

BTW, I am not sure what kind of greens you eat, but we have found people do best with tender leafy lettuces. Avoid cruciferous and root veggies.

Here is a list of naughty and nice ones: http://rawschool.com/best-raw-foods/

If you do not like greens, sneak them in smoothies, and if that does not work, then just eat a few leaves to at least clean and alkalize the mouth post meal.

Good luck and Peace, PK

Permalink Reply by Ashley Hamilton on June 19, 2012 at 3:59am

Hey PK, long time no see. Yeah i always have stuck with tender leafy greens, of course. After 3 years of slacking on eating them, i introduced steamed greens into my diet, and i feel better already. I still eat raw greens but not enough to meet the standards.

Permalink Reply by Mark on June 20, 2012 at 7:32pm

Eat lots.

Permalink Reply by fruitsandnumbers on June 20, 2012 at 8:04pm

Dear Ashley,

May I ask whether you eat steamed lettuce? In no way do I mean to disrespect you, but this seems a bit strange to me... I would be very grateful if you could tell me what greens exactly do you steam. It would also be very kind of you if you could do me the favor of clarifying the reasons why you couldn't/can't eat enough raw greens (is it the taste, which you happen to dislike? / or is it the fiber? / or simply the volume / too much eating?) and also what - in precise terms - do you consider "enough [greens] to meet the standards".

Please let me express in advance my deepest gratitude for expending your time and effort in providing me with the answers for my questions.

Dear Ashley Hamilton,

This is the first time I ever have the chance of writing you, so i would like to ask you to please allow me to express my deepest thrill and emotion in talking to someone as wise, creative, bold, celebrated, kind and enlightened as yourself. You truly stand apart among men as do very few. Please allow me to say that you count among one of my highest inspiring and guiding lights, and that your actions set standards upon which i base mine. We are all fortunate beyond measure to be able to live under your shadow, for very few spirits as high as yours have ever stepped on earthly soil.

Your life sets an example of love, kindness and respect towards all living beings, and courage beyond what seems possible to a mere human in pursuing one's life goals, and never giving up, despite apparent signs of failure. And your success beyond what seems believable in all spheres of life and in all goals you have set up to yourself is an encouragement beyond description to all of those who know your exceedingly rich and inspiring life story to pursue they own goals - and succeed.

Last but not least, I would like to request you to allow me to congratulate you for your impressively graphic artwork, which is sure to leave its mark upon the world of art for generations to come.

Please do not feel flattered by my words, as I speak in all sincerity. I do nothing but to express my deep and humble admiration for you, as a person, as an artist, as a warrior who bravely fights for anything you deem worthy of fighting for. Please forgive me if I am unworthy of directing such words to your person, for in reality I am nothing but

your humblest and most devoted admirer,

Daniel

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 19, 2012 at 12:52pm

Anyone not living near the equator cannot get UVB rays necessary to synthesize vitamin D for large parts of the year. Walking in the sun is great where I live between the months of May and October. November through April, not enough UVB because of the angle of the sun coming through the earth's atmosphere.

Vegan D3 is available (derived from lichen) from Global Health Trax and Vitashine.

Here is a link to a video by Dr. Mercola (yes, I know, but he got this one right) showing how you can use the find out when you can get UVB rays in your location.

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 21, 2012 at 4:18am

So just curious, which part is BS... that you need UVB to make Vitamin D? Or that the gov't accurately tracks the angle of the sun through the atmosphere? Or that some people live in places where they can't get UVB for much of the year?

Did you even watch the video or look at the site?

Permalink Reply by Raw Aussie Athlete on July 8, 2012 at 4:58am

Fortunately vitamin D is fat soluble so as long as we store enough vitamin D during the UVB months, all is well from a vitamin D perspective. Every part of the planet gets the same amount of sunlight over the course of a year. The areas experiencing the shortest days of daylight also experience the longest days. So while the sun exposure balances out, obviously it is easier to get a little sunlight daily in the tropics, rather than worry about trying to get a lot of sunlight while it is available in order to store enough vitamin D to buffer you through a long winter.

Permalink Reply by sunwukung on June 19, 2012 at 1:15pm

And Ashley lives under 35 paralel, so she can get enough sun all the year, right? I don't see the need of vitamin D3 suplementing, it is only one vitamin and the sun produces much more substances and stimulus in the body, for me I didn't obtain any benefit (only secondary efects) till I come to Mexico and I got real sun all the time.

Vitamin K2 during a time can be useful I think, if you are lacking enough quality greens, only till the deficiency is corrected.

I took b12 and once the deficiency was fixed, I get secondary efects from sublingual b12 almost every time I try it.