3 years and 8 months 811 raw vegan – Teeth Issues

Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.

So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.

So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.

Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;

100% raw for the entire time on this diet, no exceptions
1 non-vegan raw meal (salmon) 3 months into the diet
Majority mono fruit meals from the beginning for morning and lunch
Majority one fruit plus greens for dinner
Averaged about 3000-3500 calories over the years and really couldn’t have force fed myself anymore without gagging.
I’m 5’10”, 48kgs for 2.5 years up to current weight of 56kgs
Quantity of greens has varied over the years from none for a couple of 2 to 3 month periods early on to a couple of heads of lettuce a day. Over the last 1.5 years I’ve eaten more than I’d have liked to.
Last year I had 6 small binges on raw gourmet over the period of a year. A binge for me was having it for dinner and lunch for a few days in a row so nothing that major. This was in Bangkok at Rasayana which a lot of you long termer 811 travelers will be familiar with and is known for being light on the fat/nuts. I also had it a couple times the year before in Hawaii and Canada but hardly worth mentioning.
Spent 2.5 years travelling in the tropics following the fruit/durian trail with plenty of money (no stress) eating the best tropical fruits in the world. Best time of my life! I’ve been back in Melbourne for 4 months.
Any fruit that was found to be not quite ripe I have always discarded.
I rarely have eaten much acidic fruit as I don’t really like it.
I eat organic as much as is available.
Plenty of sunshine and my current vitamin D level is 314nmol/L (125ng/ml) which in Australia is over 4 times the normal level with no supplementation
The first year sleep was disrupted by playing in bands but since quitting music at the end of 2009 I’ve been averaging 12 hours in bed with probably 10 of that being asleep. The whole time in the tropics I went to bed religiously with the sun and rose with the sun.
Was diagnosed with severe B12 deficiency (86pmol/L) in March this year and have aggressively treated it with shots ever since and my levels are now high (1476pmol/L).
I’m no athlete but I travelled with my bike and have gotten plenty of exercise over the years. I currently run 3 times a week and have been doing so for the last 6 months and workout at least 3 times a week which has always been body weight but have recently joined a gym.
Water intake has varied but never been under 2 liters a day and on average around 3 liters over the years. Hydration level of 76% was measured before fasting at the end of 2010.
Did a 35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama.
Have a history of recreational drugs and alcohol but nothing out of the ordinary for Australia. Basically just the 20 something party lifestyle.
Went vegan 15 years ago at 23 years old, initially a fruit based raw diet for 6 months and then to cooked vegan until 30 then added fish back into my diet till 34 and then 811.
Past dental health; great teeth as a child with only a few fillings in my baby teeth. No fillings in my adult teeth that I can recall. At 17 my dentist said he could put my teeth in a catalog they were that perfect. At 19 had wisdom teeth pain for a few months but ignored it. At 25 wisdom teeth pain came back and finally went to the dentist to find I had compacted wisdom teeth. This had pushed all my teeth closer together slightly twisting some especially in the bottom front. Had wisdom teeth out but required no other dental work. Have had no pain or sensitivity till May last year when my tooth crumbled at 37 years of age. Started getting a dull ache in my left side of the jaw in March this year and increased sensitivity. Got to a point a month ago where I was having trouble chewing even a salad so 3 weeks ago I went to the dentist. Earlier this week my second molar crumbled.
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.

I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.

Thank you,

Stephen

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.

Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.

As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.

I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!

So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 19, 2012 at 1:14pm

The ONLY 100% way to get a certain calcium phosphorous ratio is to buy double your food. Take half of it to the food lab and get it ashed down to provide a mineral analysis. Then eat the other half of your food. Thats how you will know EXACTLY.

Then there is digestion, sport, sleep, hydration, stress levels etc. Not even Lance Armstrong goes to that extent to micro analysis of daily food micronutrients. He has the time and the money and the contacts but the reality is it doesnt matter. If you are recovering well and can perform good (relative to doping) then one is obviously doing well with diet and lifestyle.

Majority of the anti vegan paleo authors recommend K2 supplements to their followers and sell them on their site. Mark Sisson, Mercola, David Wolfe etc.

Permalink Reply by Adam on June 22, 2012 at 11:21pm

2.5x? You only need a 1:1 ratio...

Take care

Adam x

Permalink Reply by Randy Raw on June 19, 2012 at 2:25am

Hey Stephen

I had just a look on your pictures and i noticed that nearly everywhere on them was at least one durian. I know they taste awesome, but i dont trust in them, they make me tired and stinking. Durian is high in unsaturatet fats, together with the plenty of sugar in it, this fruit makes exactly what we want to avoid with the 80/10/10 nutrition system, she brings a lot of fat and sugar togehter in our system.

The fat acts toxic, clogs our bloodways and leads to insulin resistance, bloodsugar increases and acts also toxic, high bloodsugar also feeds candida and then again candida produces toxic products and clogging. This endproducts and also the unsaturatet fats and sugars byself are very harmful to our organism and cause an acidic and clogged environment.

This causes malnutrition, low metabolism, and - in a nutrition where it is hard enough to get sufficient amounts of minerals (especial calcium) without supplementing - wastage of them to neutralice the environment.

How many durian, acocado, nuts and other - high in unsaturatet fat - foods you have eaten over the years?

IMO, this poliunsaturatet fats (Omega 3 and 6) are the real cause of our degeneration, and together with sugar the ultimate poison for us. To get rid of all this toxic fats in our system it can take years and to prevent the damage they do unleashed to our bloodstream for the detoxification organs, we can profite from a vitamin E supplement.

Also without this very dangerous amounts of unsaturatet fats, i would recommend supplementation of calzium and vitamin K2 (MK-7). Weston A. Price did very interesting research for toothhealth of the tribal folks all over the world and figured out the common factor of theyr perfect toothhealth as a simple, very high in minerals and vitamin K2 (MK-7) rich diet.

You can eat high amounts of meat, if it is just - poor in mineral - musclemeat the problems will became more worse than without animal products.

I have startet to drink my stinging nettle green juce nearly dayly and supplementing with a vitamin K complex: http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Comple...

I am in one opinion with Harrison about the phosphorus question, in a nutrition with plenty of fruits, its not possible to dont get inough from it. But to run out of calcium is done very easy!

The dentalcare and hygiene are things whitch has became hooly to me. I use a soft brush, pure olive oil soap, bicarbonate, and turmeric to clean, rinse with water and do long times without eating and big meals. Less acid and unripe fruit to prevent from direct damage, lots of water and sun, keep an eye on my B12, do moderate sport and eat until im not hungry and find agreable sleep.

To look if your body take calcium from bones and teets check your blood for parathyroid! If it is high the body takes calcium from your substance, if it is low the body get enough from nutrition.

Perhaps there is no way without some work from the dentist, look for someone you know or your friends know, and make sure he is not interested in your money...

Good luck and sorry for my very poor english :-)

lg Randy

Permalink Reply by Randy Raw on June 19, 2012 at 2:52am

500g durian is already to much, and 500g is not a big meal with his 735kcal...

Permalink Reply by Gia on June 19, 2012 at 4:38am

Sorry Stephen you are having teeth issues. I have been lfrv for 11 years. I had lots of cavities as a child so I had 2 teeth fall apart( old fillings in my molar) but that was before lfrv. Flossing is so important you can get away with not flossing when you are younger but it catches up to you when you are older. If you have ever been on anti -depressents they dry out the mouth. past lifestyle choices do take awhile to affect the teeth. Teeth can seem fine but people need x-rays to make sure. I am always surprise when people had eating disorders and then are shocked when their teeth start causes them problems years later.

I have always used flouride toothpaste and flossed and went to the dentist for cleanings. I have no new problems with my teeth for the last 11 years. I know eventually I will have to get old fillings replaced because the only last for so long.

i would get a second opinion on your teeth. How long were you low on b-12?

My teeth are really close together too, but you must start flossing now that you are older the body is less forgiving then when you were in your 20s and younger. also I do swish with salt water once in awhile.

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 19, 2012 at 1:34pm

As for vitamin K2 its all about eating enough plants then fermentation from gut bacterial. Both are dependant on a healthy gut.

Interesting to note there is not a K2 blood test out yet AND natto is the most easy available source of K2. Its like Japanese vegemite lol!

Permalink Reply by Amy Apricot on June 19, 2012 at 7:49pm

how important is it to limit the time fruit sugar is on your teeth? should we be limiting meal times to like 20 minutes?

im really interested in this calcium/phosphorus ratio too.. i looked on cronometer and 10 oranges have 600mg of calcium.. gotta eat them not juice though to get the calcium. and make sure only eat them ripe and sweet

Permalink Reply by Stuart May on June 19, 2012 at 8:10pm

I too noticed the difference between the calcium of freshly squeezed o/j and oranges

interestingly on cronometer orange peel has 97cal/100g and 161mg of calcium, oranges have 47cal/100g and 40mg of calcium and orange juice has 45 cal/100g and only 11mg of calcium.

i used to eat orange peel as a kid but haven't done so as an adult but it contains twice the calorific value of its inners and 4 times the calcium and nearly 15 times the calcium of orange juice.

Permalink Reply by Justin Lovenow on June 19, 2012 at 10:02pm

Yes, exactly, and peel of a fruit usually contain indigestible fiber, anti-nutrients and toxins, - a function of protection against parasites.

Also I wonder if cronometer counts in the "nutritional value" of seeds...:)

Look further at LIME "whole" versus "juiced"..., with the double amount of calcium in the whole fruit package = peel+indigestible fiber+seeds...

Permalink Reply by Stuart May on June 19, 2012 at 11:00pm

The 'oranges' nutritional values on cronometer don't include peel (and obviously pips) as there is an option of 'oranges (with peel)' that gives 63 cal/100g and 70mg of calcium. Therefore the discrepancy between oj and oranges in calcium must come from the segment walls and/ or maybe the pith. I would say that the values with limes on cronometer also don't include peel or seeds.

Permalink Reply by Justin Lovenow on June 20, 2012 at 8:07am

It must be that the cronometer "raw juice" standard is highly over filtrated or something...

Because after my squeezing of citrus fruits there is ONLY peel and seeds left over, which I never consume or spit out anyway when chewing these fruits as "whole"...

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 21, 2012 at 3:36am

And I have the same problem with this as I do with the high fat content of raspberries and blackberries... I don't think we're digesting this stuff.

Sure, when you ash it in the lab, there's a higher calcium content, but if the segment walls are passing undigested through my intestines, I'm not getting that calcium.