3 years and 8 months 811 raw vegan – Teeth Issues

Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.

So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.

So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.

Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;

100% raw for the entire time on this diet, no exceptions
1 non-vegan raw meal (salmon) 3 months into the diet
Majority mono fruit meals from the beginning for morning and lunch
Majority one fruit plus greens for dinner
Averaged about 3000-3500 calories over the years and really couldn’t have force fed myself anymore without gagging.
I’m 5’10”, 48kgs for 2.5 years up to current weight of 56kgs
Quantity of greens has varied over the years from none for a couple of 2 to 3 month periods early on to a couple of heads of lettuce a day. Over the last 1.5 years I’ve eaten more than I’d have liked to.
Last year I had 6 small binges on raw gourmet over the period of a year. A binge for me was having it for dinner and lunch for a few days in a row so nothing that major. This was in Bangkok at Rasayana which a lot of you long termer 811 travelers will be familiar with and is known for being light on the fat/nuts. I also had it a couple times the year before in Hawaii and Canada but hardly worth mentioning.
Spent 2.5 years travelling in the tropics following the fruit/durian trail with plenty of money (no stress) eating the best tropical fruits in the world. Best time of my life! I’ve been back in Melbourne for 4 months.
Any fruit that was found to be not quite ripe I have always discarded.
I rarely have eaten much acidic fruit as I don’t really like it.
I eat organic as much as is available.
Plenty of sunshine and my current vitamin D level is 314nmol/L (125ng/ml) which in Australia is over 4 times the normal level with no supplementation
The first year sleep was disrupted by playing in bands but since quitting music at the end of 2009 I’ve been averaging 12 hours in bed with probably 10 of that being asleep. The whole time in the tropics I went to bed religiously with the sun and rose with the sun.
Was diagnosed with severe B12 deficiency (86pmol/L) in March this year and have aggressively treated it with shots ever since and my levels are now high (1476pmol/L).
I’m no athlete but I travelled with my bike and have gotten plenty of exercise over the years. I currently run 3 times a week and have been doing so for the last 6 months and workout at least 3 times a week which has always been body weight but have recently joined a gym.
Water intake has varied but never been under 2 liters a day and on average around 3 liters over the years. Hydration level of 76% was measured before fasting at the end of 2010.
Did a 35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama.
Have a history of recreational drugs and alcohol but nothing out of the ordinary for Australia. Basically just the 20 something party lifestyle.
Went vegan 15 years ago at 23 years old, initially a fruit based raw diet for 6 months and then to cooked vegan until 30 then added fish back into my diet till 34 and then 811.
Past dental health; great teeth as a child with only a few fillings in my baby teeth. No fillings in my adult teeth that I can recall. At 17 my dentist said he could put my teeth in a catalog they were that perfect. At 19 had wisdom teeth pain for a few months but ignored it. At 25 wisdom teeth pain came back and finally went to the dentist to find I had compacted wisdom teeth. This had pushed all my teeth closer together slightly twisting some especially in the bottom front. Had wisdom teeth out but required no other dental work. Have had no pain or sensitivity till May last year when my tooth crumbled at 37 years of age. Started getting a dull ache in my left side of the jaw in March this year and increased sensitivity. Got to a point a month ago where I was having trouble chewing even a salad so 3 weeks ago I went to the dentist. Earlier this week my second molar crumbled.
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.

I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.

Thank you,

Stephen

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.

Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.

As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.

I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!

So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Stephen on July 7, 2012 at 6:22pm

I think I've been lacking in general in the mineral and fat-soluble vitamins area. Eggs were a late addition just before I started this post so I was already feeling better before their addition. Since the 25th of June I've been tracking my calcium intake and making sure it's above 1000mg a day. I've been doing this with a combo of more greens and the new additions to my diet.

Permalink Reply by Liam G on January 28, 2013 at 10:04am

I think fat soluble vitamins could be an issue for some people, but I don't see how eggs are the answer. I'm not saying you said that, but it almost sounds like it. Neither am I saying people need more than 10% fat necessarily, but that people should perhaps be not so afraid to eat overt fats every now and then.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you've been listening to Victor. If people want to experiment and say they feel better doing certain things that's totally fine, but I feel Victor offers a lot of false information. He says he takes eggs for vitamin k, when eggs are a terrible source of vitamin k. According to USDA listings, you have to eat about 5 large eggs just to get 1% of your requirements. I've checked other sources too.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I didn't see you mention anything about bleeding more easily, bleeding gums, bleeding nose etc, which is a common symptom of vitamin k deficiency.

He also says phytate is the only form phosphorus in plant foods. I don't think this is true. Mineral deficiencies such as calcium, iron and zinc would be very common in vegans if this were true.

I know this isn't much help, or any help. I just wanted to put the record straight on a few things. Best of luck.

Permalink Reply by Stephen on July 7, 2012 at 6:24pm

Yes I've heard this and agree. My fat intake is higher now due to the non-vegan foods so maybe that will make a difference.

Permalink Reply by Ines Caldas on July 18, 2012 at 12:57am

Hello,

I am dentist and i think there are a couple of things you shoul know:

First, you must floss! Your teeth crumble because they have cavities in the contact points with other teeth; that are isn't cleaned whem yo brush, and the tongue, cheeks movement and saliva have a poor action in those areas - so you must floss! Once a day, minimum!

Because cavities are formed due to acidic production from bacteria in the mouth - these bacteria run on carbs! So you must get carbs out of your teeth!

Secondly a raw vegan diet produces more acid - people in these diet have more dental erosion! And that is ok! that can be avoided also! The number one care is to avoide brushing your teeth imediately after eating your delicious fruit (especially the acidic) - wait five minutes and you are ready to go! Anything else or anything that isn't clear, please don't hesitate to ask!

Hope you feel better soon!

Best regards

inês

Permalink Reply by Mikey on July 28, 2012 at 11:44am

Hey ines I will paste your reply in

http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/what-is-your-dental-hygie...

Hi Ines couple of questions

-what about rinsing with water (water +baking soda) to help neutralize the acids and removing some of the extra food sugar and particles.

-5 minutes you think it is enough time for the enamel not to be damaged after an acid meal?

-Have you heard of Dr.Naras work?

http://mizar5.com/NaraOneRadio.html

Recommendations on

http://www.oramedia.com/

Permalink Reply by MR. Brownstone on July 24, 2012 at 8:35am

If you want strong teeth... WATCH THIS!

Permalink Reply by Bart M on July 24, 2012 at 9:56am

Interesting. Thanks for posting. What's this person's name? I don't think it said in the video.

Permalink Reply by Madiha Mostafa on July 31, 2012 at 2:15am

Wow that blew my mind!! By the way that 2 part video doesn't include the steps we should take, its in the "5 secrets to beautiful teeth" video in the related video section.

Permalink Reply by Madiha Mostafa on July 31, 2012 at 12:39am

You should buy a miswak toothstick! It's a natural twig that's inherited from middle eastern culture. It's been proven to have anti-bacterial properties and even whitens teeth over time. I think it's your best natural option. Plus, most people don't even rinse when they use this (I know it sounds gross). But there are conflicting opinions on this. I bet you can buy one at your local middle eastern store or online.

Permalink Reply by Madiha Mostafa on July 31, 2012 at 3:34am

I have a very interesting quotation from Dr. Graham in an interview!! I think it makes a lot of sense!

"Kevin Great. I wanted to talk to you about tooth care because a lot of people who get into the raw food diet have specific teeth issues that may arise. What are some of the challenges that people face? What are some of the things that you've done to kind of help reverse some of that?

Dr. Graham: Tooth care, it's an interesting thing. Long ago people asked me to write about diseases. I said, "You know, I don't really write about diseases because diseases are all pretty much the same. If you stop participating in the cause, the body won't generate the symptoms." Every individual disease, there's thousands and thousands of human health conditions. I think it comes up the same with teeth. Oral hygiene and oral health is once again just one tiny aspect. It would be a shame if we were out there in the world telling people, "Look, we've got this diet. It's the best diet in the world for everybody but it's really terrible for your teeth." Well that wouldn't work. It turns out that the diet that we espouse is really wonderful for our teeth.

And obviously, but it still has to be said, because anybody that's ever been to a dentist's office has noticed that the dentist offices around the world are filled with people eating cooked food. So we can't just look at raw food and say, "Raw food is really bad for your teeth because look what happens," because we're seeing the same thing happen on cooked food. At the same time we're also seeing two other issues going on with our teeth that have to be at least allowed for. One is the fact, as disclosed in Pottinger's Cat's, that with every generation of cats eating a diet that was not species specific there was degeneration, both physical and physiological. In other words in the form and function and the design of the cat we saw decay.

We notice in human anatomy that changes have happened. One of the big ones that happens with malnutrition over generations is a loss of what is called the broadness, a narrowing of the dental arch. So for instance, if I smile at you, you might see 8 or 10 teeth whereas someone with a broader dental arch would smile at you and you would see 12 teeth or 14 teeth. The broader the front of that arch is, the wider the horseshoe, effectively, that the teeth make, the more room there is for teeth. So we're seeing an increase with each generation. We're seeing an increase in the number of children who need orthodontic work because there simply isn't enough room for the number of teeth that are coming in, so they start crossing over each other instead of sitting alongside of each other.

We have inherited not only this problem but several others, with the health of our teeth, before we ever went raw. Then we have these issues with going raw. One of them is that a lot of people go raw and have a really hard time staying raw, so they're switching back and forth between cooked and raw, which doesn't do our teeth a lot of good, especially the kinds of foods that tend to get cooked, because as you become aware on some level, cooked food is really sticky. It sticks to our teeth like crazy. If we're going to eat food that sticks to our teeth and a bunch of sweet foods as well, we're going to have problems. In fact, anything that sticks to your teeth is a problem. All cooked food is sticky, all dehydrated food is sticky to some degree, stickier than its fresh counterpart. Nuts and seeds are sticky, they've been dehydrated.

The other problem that comes in is almost invariably some aspect of nature attack us when we go raw. We become 'nature boys' and 'nature girls' to a greater degree than we ever were before. A lot of people have come to me and said, "I went raw four years ago. I stopped using shampoo. I stopped using
deodorant. I stopped using a toothpaste. No animal brushes their teeth. I stopped brushing my teeth." The number of people who've told me that is just astonishing. And I'm going, "Yeah, you know, you didn't really earn that right the first day you went raw to expect that your body could function as if you had been raw your entire life and your parents had been raw their entire life and it had gone back for generations." I'm not really sure that no teeth care is the plan.

In fact, it's not the plan that I recommend. I recommend a tooth care plan. I recommend that you do clean your teeth after you eat and that you do not only a careful brushing under the gum line, or right at the gum line - this is where our teeth are most vulnerable - but that you also get out the particulate matter that's in between your teeth. Whether you're doing that with a bristly kind of round brush or whether you're doing that with floss or whether you're doing that with pick or a brush pick, there's a wide variety of ways to do it.

We eat raw food and our teeth feel so clean but in fact there's still stuff, there's still material. And organic material stuck between your teeth is going to be broken down by bacteria. The bacteria will produce acid that will harm your teeth. In almost every case, I would say in every case of dental issues that I've seen with raw fooders, it's a matter of them having decay at the gum line. It's always at the gum line. It's not the enamel portion that they're having such problems with, it's at the gum line where there isn't enamel. And this is because on a standard cooked food diet we actually cause a loss of gums but also an inflammation of the gums. When the gums are inflamed, even though we've lost some gum matter, the inflammation makes them bigger and it covers up that area of tooth that has no enamel. When the source of the irritation goes away, we start eating raw foods that are not irritating to the gums instead of the cooked foods that have irritants built right into them, the food additives all function as irritants to the gums and so they become inflamed.

When we go to raw foods and we get rid of that irritation, the inflammation also goes down at which point we start to expose the teeth at the gum line, areas of teeth that don't have enamel, and without cleaning them on a regular basis you're definitely going to have tartar build up. What happens is kind of like a pearl in an oyster; the pearl functions as an irritant. If you get a little tiny bit of tartar under the gum line. If you get a little piece of food under the gum line it's like picking up the blankets on the bed, it pulls the gum off of the teeth and then anything else can get in under there. At every meal stuff starts getting under there and the gums just get worse and worse, they recede quickly.

The gums are supposed to be dull in color, they should not be shiny. They're supposed to be sort of stippled looking. They should not be puffy looking in any way, shape or form. If your gums are puffy or shiny, if the color isn't that of healthy gums, you need to take care of them. This idea that we can live without washing is just not founded. Cleanliness is next to Godliness, as the old saying goes. Certainly cleanliness is a huge part of health and hygiene for human beings. We have to take care of ourselves."