3 years and 8 months 811 raw vegan – Teeth Issues

Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.

So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.

So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.

Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;

100% raw for the entire time on this diet, no exceptions
1 non-vegan raw meal (salmon) 3 months into the diet
Majority mono fruit meals from the beginning for morning and lunch
Majority one fruit plus greens for dinner
Averaged about 3000-3500 calories over the years and really couldn’t have force fed myself anymore without gagging.
I’m 5’10”, 48kgs for 2.5 years up to current weight of 56kgs
Quantity of greens has varied over the years from none for a couple of 2 to 3 month periods early on to a couple of heads of lettuce a day. Over the last 1.5 years I’ve eaten more than I’d have liked to.
Last year I had 6 small binges on raw gourmet over the period of a year. A binge for me was having it for dinner and lunch for a few days in a row so nothing that major. This was in Bangkok at Rasayana which a lot of you long termer 811 travelers will be familiar with and is known for being light on the fat/nuts. I also had it a couple times the year before in Hawaii and Canada but hardly worth mentioning.
Spent 2.5 years travelling in the tropics following the fruit/durian trail with plenty of money (no stress) eating the best tropical fruits in the world. Best time of my life! I’ve been back in Melbourne for 4 months.
Any fruit that was found to be not quite ripe I have always discarded.
I rarely have eaten much acidic fruit as I don’t really like it.
I eat organic as much as is available.
Plenty of sunshine and my current vitamin D level is 314nmol/L (125ng/ml) which in Australia is over 4 times the normal level with no supplementation
The first year sleep was disrupted by playing in bands but since quitting music at the end of 2009 I’ve been averaging 12 hours in bed with probably 10 of that being asleep. The whole time in the tropics I went to bed religiously with the sun and rose with the sun.
Was diagnosed with severe B12 deficiency (86pmol/L) in March this year and have aggressively treated it with shots ever since and my levels are now high (1476pmol/L).
I’m no athlete but I travelled with my bike and have gotten plenty of exercise over the years. I currently run 3 times a week and have been doing so for the last 6 months and workout at least 3 times a week which has always been body weight but have recently joined a gym.
Water intake has varied but never been under 2 liters a day and on average around 3 liters over the years. Hydration level of 76% was measured before fasting at the end of 2010.
Did a 35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama.
Have a history of recreational drugs and alcohol but nothing out of the ordinary for Australia. Basically just the 20 something party lifestyle.
Went vegan 15 years ago at 23 years old, initially a fruit based raw diet for 6 months and then to cooked vegan until 30 then added fish back into my diet till 34 and then 811.
Past dental health; great teeth as a child with only a few fillings in my baby teeth. No fillings in my adult teeth that I can recall. At 17 my dentist said he could put my teeth in a catalog they were that perfect. At 19 had wisdom teeth pain for a few months but ignored it. At 25 wisdom teeth pain came back and finally went to the dentist to find I had compacted wisdom teeth. This had pushed all my teeth closer together slightly twisting some especially in the bottom front. Had wisdom teeth out but required no other dental work. Have had no pain or sensitivity till May last year when my tooth crumbled at 37 years of age. Started getting a dull ache in my left side of the jaw in March this year and increased sensitivity. Got to a point a month ago where I was having trouble chewing even a salad so 3 weeks ago I went to the dentist. Earlier this week my second molar crumbled.
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.

I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.

Thank you,

Stephen

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.

Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.

As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.

I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!

So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Stephen on June 22, 2012 at 9:44pm

Hi Reed, I haven't heard this info before. Do you have a link to more detailed info?

Permalink Reply by Chris Beckett on July 26, 2012 at 4:54pm

Reed,

I am curious as to where you received your information about fasting being unhealthy and the cause of so many health problems?

Mainstream sources perhaps?

Permalink Reply by Stephen on June 22, 2012 at 9:42pm

Hi Justin, it happened when I had salt about 2 months after re-feeding. I had had no juices or smoothies.

Permalink Reply by Blake Sco on June 19, 2012 at 4:38am

Hey Stephen!

I recently did an overhaul with my dental routine and am pleased to inform you my problem tooth (upper lateral incisor had a hole forming) started filling itself back in immediately and in a week and a half I could actually see it! Btw my diet during this short 2 week period consisted MAINLY of: bananas, dates and lots of peas.

This proves:

1) Clean teeth don't rot.

2) I am getting enough calcium, phosphorus, and vitamins A, C, and D on 811 + sunshine to regrow part of my own tooth!

3) You don't need those animals products to regrow teeth--they'll actually take away from your teeth.

I just started brushing very thoroughly every time after I eat especially (sweet fruit). Brushing once at night was something I used to relate to but not anymore cuz that allowed the ever-efficient fruit sugar to feed the bacteria. Dutifully brushing is what you should focus on. Supplementing won't give any noticeable effects but cleaning your teeth will. You can also try some dental tape by johnson + johnson--they call it dental floss nowadays but its flat + wide).

Check out this interview with a straight-shootin, no-nonsense dentist who uses only a brush, salt, and dental tape (wide and flat much gentler than floss):

http://www.oneradionetwork2.com/mp3/health/dental/nara_robert_dds_d...

Also check out what Jameth Sheridan (vegan and low fat) says about getting yer dental routine up to snuff (it involves not being lazy haha):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4H1R2AZzTc

Permalink Reply by Mikey on July 16, 2012 at 8:19am

Hey Stephen this is awesome info about dental hygiene recommended by another 811 who had some issues. He even mentions a product for teeth re-mineralization that helps it go faster

Here is the interview provided by Nate great stuff

The interview can be found here: http://mizar5.com/NaraOneRadio.html

Recommendations on

http://www.oramedia.com/

Permalink Reply by Ashley Hamilton on June 18, 2012 at 1:35am

I would like to also add my story to this discussion. And i agree that only long termers (2+ years) or those with a medical background should reply -- this is a serious discussion that should not be taken lightly.

This is an issue that Many of us are dealing with right now. But with proper care it can be prevented. Let our stories educate you to start taking care of your teeth NOW. Nature won't do it for you, like i once believed...

I have been 811 for 4 years, the 3 were 100% raw, super strict, and the last year i have eaten mainly fruit but steamed veg at night, for various reasons (mainly because wasn't eating enough raw greens - couldnt stomach them)

A few days ago, my upper back-most tooth CRUMBLED.

I was randomly feeling around my teeth with my finger, and i put the VERY SLIGHTEST pressure on a tooth and it just caved in and fell into pieces. I went and got a dental mirror from the store and to my horror, i realized that i had quite a few blatant signs of decay, mainly in my far back molars -- but those aren't even the only ones that hurt. I have severe pain in my whole mouth, mainly an intense ache on the whole right side, and the pain moves from one tooth to the other. My teeth have become quite transluscent over the past 4 years, and very sensitive -- so sensitive, in fact, that even drinking water makes them hurt. Basically, my teeth are decaying.

Here is some of my history to give you perspective:

-again, 4 years 811, and in the last year some steamed veg

-I have never really taken care of my teeth HOWEVER i have never had any fillings or dental work -- I used to go to the dentist twice a year growing up and ive never had any issues. In fact, the last time i went to the dentist was about 2 months into my 811 journey and he said my teeth were perfect! I changed nothing in regards to my dental hygiene, and 4 years later i have severe tooth decay.

-For about 3 years of my 811 experience, i brushed with water and on a rare occasion toothpaste. I never really flossed, and i was lax about brushing, but this was the same as i've always been growing up...

---------- IMPORTANT THINGS IVE LEARNED IN THE PAST WEEK: ---------------

- Vitamin D3 and K2 are extremely important for teeth health. For vegans, this means SUPPLEMENTING. If you are having the slightest tooth pain, i highly recommend ordering these supplements online - they make vegan versions. Also make sure you are getting enough B12 and A. and everything else. ;) But D3 and K2 are 2 biggies when it comes to teeth, and allow for proper absorption of calcium.

- Brushing and flossing IS IMPORTANT! I became so pure in my thinking in my first few years of 811 that i was against the use of all products. And im sure many of you can understand why. But after talking to various others, I decided to use a regular fluoride toothpaste. (i know it's scary and probably unnatural) but It has already made Huge improvements and just in one week my teeth are noticeably whiter.

- Eating many greens / veg is important to get minerals! My diet often lacked many greens and i think it's extremely important. If you can't stomach many raw ones then slightly steam them. Get them in you!

- stay hydrated

- de-stress

----It is important to also note that I am not blaming 811 for my teeth issues. But i do think the high fruit diet may be ONE factor in a pool of other factors including: dehydration, stress, dental hygeine, not enough greens (minerals), deficient in b3 or k2, etc. Please don't let this happen to you. It's a living hell. Take action NOW and take care of your teeth early on! ----

I have a holistic dentist appointment in mid-july so i'll see how things play out until then.

Permalink Reply by Rawbert on June 18, 2012 at 1:50am

'In fact, the last time i went to the dentist was about 2 months into my 811 journey and he said my teeth were perfect!'

-Hi Ashley, do you have an x-ray to prove this?

Permalink Reply by Ashley Hamilton on June 18, 2012 at 3:19am

I am not sure he gave me an x-ray - this was 4 years ago. But i can COMPLETELY ASSURE you that i am telling the truth. Why would i make that up!? I have never had any cavities or fillings.

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 18, 2012 at 3:38am

Seems like a dentist would be LOOKING for flaws so they could make more money. No incentive to tell you that your teeth are perfect if they are not...

Then again, it could have been an incompetent dentist.

I do understand why Rawbert would want evidence, but also why Ashley, who has been a long-time whole-hearted believer and proponent of this lifestyle would want trust.

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 18, 2012 at 3:44am

Also, Ashley, I know you know Ann Osborne personally. She has said in the past that she has no teeth problems. And she often monos on oranges for extended periods and eats no greens.

Any comments you have or additional ideas or opinions you could share about that?

Permalink Reply by PK on June 19, 2012 at 3:02am

@Greenmama,

I eat a mono meal of oranges almost everyday and have no teeth issues. My dentist has told me I have one of the healthiest teeth and gums she has seen.

Because oranges are acidic, there is a cultural panic that they may erode our teeth. However, the way they act up eating and within the body has more of an alkalizing effect. The fibers are great for cleaning the gums, the calcium great for building strong teeth and bones, and the vitamin C is also great for collagen and again building strong body tissues.

Many people freak about eating oranges and tomatoes because they are so called acidic. But even on 811, if one avoids citrus, greens, and foods high in vitamin C, they, in theory, could still develop clinical and subclinical signs of scurvy, of which the mouth may show the first signs and symptoms especially in the form of gum disease. And ironically, ascorbic acid and or a high vitamin C based or citrus based diet may be prescribed. (here)

Peace PK

Permalink Reply by Rawbert on June 18, 2012 at 3:50am

I'm not saying that you making this up or not telling the truth.

All I'm saying is that if the dentist take no x-rays, just made a visual inspection that doesn't show internal problems.. if he did take x-rays they still have it in your file and you can go back to take a look or ask them to send a copy.

If he took no x-rays at all than you have no prove at all that your teeth were healthy when starting 811.