3 years and 8 months 811 raw vegan – Teeth Issues

Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.

So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.

So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.

Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;

100% raw for the entire time on this diet, no exceptions
1 non-vegan raw meal (salmon) 3 months into the diet
Majority mono fruit meals from the beginning for morning and lunch
Majority one fruit plus greens for dinner
Averaged about 3000-3500 calories over the years and really couldn’t have force fed myself anymore without gagging.
I’m 5’10”, 48kgs for 2.5 years up to current weight of 56kgs
Quantity of greens has varied over the years from none for a couple of 2 to 3 month periods early on to a couple of heads of lettuce a day. Over the last 1.5 years I’ve eaten more than I’d have liked to.
Last year I had 6 small binges on raw gourmet over the period of a year. A binge for me was having it for dinner and lunch for a few days in a row so nothing that major. This was in Bangkok at Rasayana which a lot of you long termer 811 travelers will be familiar with and is known for being light on the fat/nuts. I also had it a couple times the year before in Hawaii and Canada but hardly worth mentioning.
Spent 2.5 years travelling in the tropics following the fruit/durian trail with plenty of money (no stress) eating the best tropical fruits in the world. Best time of my life! I’ve been back in Melbourne for 4 months.
Any fruit that was found to be not quite ripe I have always discarded.
I rarely have eaten much acidic fruit as I don’t really like it.
I eat organic as much as is available.
Plenty of sunshine and my current vitamin D level is 314nmol/L (125ng/ml) which in Australia is over 4 times the normal level with no supplementation
The first year sleep was disrupted by playing in bands but since quitting music at the end of 2009 I’ve been averaging 12 hours in bed with probably 10 of that being asleep. The whole time in the tropics I went to bed religiously with the sun and rose with the sun.
Was diagnosed with severe B12 deficiency (86pmol/L) in March this year and have aggressively treated it with shots ever since and my levels are now high (1476pmol/L).
I’m no athlete but I travelled with my bike and have gotten plenty of exercise over the years. I currently run 3 times a week and have been doing so for the last 6 months and workout at least 3 times a week which has always been body weight but have recently joined a gym.
Water intake has varied but never been under 2 liters a day and on average around 3 liters over the years. Hydration level of 76% was measured before fasting at the end of 2010.
Did a 35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama.
Have a history of recreational drugs and alcohol but nothing out of the ordinary for Australia. Basically just the 20 something party lifestyle.
Went vegan 15 years ago at 23 years old, initially a fruit based raw diet for 6 months and then to cooked vegan until 30 then added fish back into my diet till 34 and then 811.
Past dental health; great teeth as a child with only a few fillings in my baby teeth. No fillings in my adult teeth that I can recall. At 17 my dentist said he could put my teeth in a catalog they were that perfect. At 19 had wisdom teeth pain for a few months but ignored it. At 25 wisdom teeth pain came back and finally went to the dentist to find I had compacted wisdom teeth. This had pushed all my teeth closer together slightly twisting some especially in the bottom front. Had wisdom teeth out but required no other dental work. Have had no pain or sensitivity till May last year when my tooth crumbled at 37 years of age. Started getting a dull ache in my left side of the jaw in March this year and increased sensitivity. Got to a point a month ago where I was having trouble chewing even a salad so 3 weeks ago I went to the dentist. Earlier this week my second molar crumbled.
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.

I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.

Thank you,

Stephen

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.

Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.

As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.

I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!

So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 22, 2012 at 3:00pm

A good link about the WAPF diet scam.

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/the-truth-about-the-weston-pr...

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 22, 2012 at 3:11pm

This is why I promote injections for b12 sufficiency than any other method.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/JBMR.041018/full

My good friend in Adelaide that has been eating raw animal products (Read WAPF years ago) for the last decade also has had low clinical b12 serum levels too. He has experienced cavities and lost teeth during this period of animal product consumption. Is it like to his low b12 serum levels? Who knows. I think we will learn a lot more in the next 50 years. In the mean time Im going with what works in health & fitness.

You can't turn a Corolla into a Porsche like some fad diet gimmick authors claim you can but you sure can do your best with Corolla genetics and nurture them.

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 24, 2012 at 7:55am

Just thought I would slip in this timely video from Aajonus Vonderplanitz. I thought eating raw animal products would 'remineralise the teeth for perfect dental health' yet Aajonus Vonderplanitz clearly has false teeth in this video. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the paleo primal K2 nonsense that goes around.)

Permalink Reply by Rawbert on June 24, 2012 at 8:53am

The left side looks false to me (right side in the video).

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 24, 2012 at 10:04am

I agree... looks like a partial. My dad has one and it looks just like that. The false teeth are whiter and slightly larger than the other teeth. And Harley never said that he lost his teeth due to eating raw meat. He just said that he hasn't grown another set, as some have suggested can happen if you eat lots of animal products.

I just was amazed and appalled that he eats mostly raw meat, some of it rotten. It just is so gross, I wonder how he does it. Hmmm, what appeals to me, dates or raw hamburger? Mangos or rotten carrion? Bananas or roadkill? He was quite well-spoken and seemingly calm, and yet I question his sanity. LOL!

Permalink Reply by Rawbert on June 24, 2012 at 8:50am

lol Harley.. I love when these gurus make personalized videos about you!

It really shows just how special you are for them too not just for us!!! :)

Permalink Reply by Audrey Walker on June 24, 2012 at 8:38am

Hi Stephen,

I didn't have the time to read the entire thread but I'd like to suggest thoroughly brushing or rinsing your mouth REALLY well after every fruit meal or any meal that has any sugar or starch in it. I"ve been vegan for 20 years and raw for almost 10 years and my teeth are very strong and healthy (although I have other health issues due to not being able to eat enough but that"s another story) according to my dentist. I've had dental insurance for the past two years and so have been going every six months and my dentist says she's never seen a healthier set of teeth. The first time I went to see her I handn't been to the dentist in 5 years and I had no decay or enamel loss despite eating 80/10/10 for years.

I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS rinse my mouth out really after eating so that the food particles (particularly sugar) don't have a chance to start causing problems. I've done this ever since I was a teenager and a dentist told me I would never get cavities if I did that and apparently he was right.

My hunch is that your fast depleted you at a fairly quickly rate and that is why your teeth degenerated so fast. I think focusing on re-mineralizing is a great idea and start rinsing your mouth out all the time! :-)

Best to you!

Audrey

Permalink Reply by Mikey on July 13, 2012 at 12:56pm

Hi Audrey,

I agree with rinsing after fruit meals an making sure their is no food stuck. Just wondering have you and do you use something to control the bacteria, like a toothpaste or a mouth wash or have you just you used water

Permalink Reply by Stephen on June 24, 2012 at 1:19pm

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

Permalink Reply by sunwukung on June 24, 2012 at 4:20pm

Thanks very much for your honesty stephen, I will be interested on your progression.

"if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted" I think this could be true given two conditions: 1 enough greens in enough variety (not only lettuce, this could be enoguh for healthy people and some ill people, I suspect many people is going to have a hard time to recover without a minimal variety of greens and even fruit) 2, we shouldn't have been vaccinated, I have had very bad experience because a vaccine at 13 that change my life to worse. It can have deep consequences on the body, very deep.

Of course all the wrong things in this times too, not enough breastfeeding, wrong diet of the parents, selfabuses, etc.

About eskimos,just now I don't find a pdf about eskimos rests dated from 1500 that showed strong evidence of illness at young age (advanced oteoporosis in a women of 40).

For me the ideal diet 811 is with 150 or more species and varieties of fruit and greens, 4 or less can be enough for healthy and strong people during some time, I doubt some people could get a complete health (always get better of course) with that few. And greens are essential, at the begining if I ate only fruit for a day I felt weak and with backpain. It went away with green smoothies.

I hope you all the best, keep us informed please.

Permalink Reply by Rhonda Richlen on June 24, 2012 at 9:17pm