Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.
So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.
So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.
Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;
That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.
I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.
Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.
There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.
Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.
As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.
I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!
So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.
p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.
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I juice my citrus then put the juice in the Vitamix with the pineapple, then blend. I don't juice the pineapple, thereby retaining all of the fiber. I have the same juicer, and I don't really see how you can easily juice a pineapple with one.
Nice! I never tried using one of those on anything other than citrus and pomagranate. I'll have to try pineapple! Thanks!
Lots of useful information in this discussion, thank you all!
Being 811rv for only +1 year I don't really know how my teeth are going to work out. The first year I had two normal dentist check-ups and all was fine as usual, so this gave me confirmation the fruit was all good. I have never had any cavity and still have all my teeth, I did broke two front teeth as a child, but the dentist clued a part on it.
The first year I still used a normal hand toothbrush with meswak toothpaste (contains fluoride and glycerin), I don't like to floss, since I can't get the floss between my teeth, I do use toothpicks and miswak as teeth cleaning twig. The last few months I started using only water and baking soda, and it feels cleaner. Reading this discussion I just ordered a Sonicare Diamond Clean HX9332 and Sonicare AirFloss to kick the cleaning level up, let technology helps us a bit here.
The 1:1 calcium:phosphorus is a bit confusing, and I agree with Harley cron-o-meter is just a rough estimate, but I checked my cron-o-meter and I average on 744mg calcium vs 1251mg phosphorus so should I worry? I though I was doing pretty good :D There ain't much high calcium fruits around in The Netherlands (no papayas, no figs). I do supplement D2, B12, and Iodine.
I like the idea of using more collard greens and bok choy. I believe bok choy is pretty mild tasting. Roger Haeske has a Savory Veggie Stew recipe called Beefy Bone Builder Stew that uses collards. I believe he also said that for every banana that he eats (like in a smoothie, for example), he eats a stalk of celery to help with the phosphorous/ calcium ratio. I did this just today. I ate a breakfast of bananas and finished it up with a stalk of celery for each banana that I ate. I actually really enjoyed it! I didn't think that I liked plain celery, but it turns out that I do! Sorry, still new here. (I hope you all don't mind that I posted!)
That is a great idea. I love celery, as long as it isn't too tough. I'm going to start adding a celery stalk here and there throughout the day. Thanks for the idea.
Do you have access to oranges or other citrus? Increasing lettuce greens might help too.
Thoroughly brush your teeth once you are finished and satiated from a fruit meal (or any meal)--that's how I filled in the hole in my incisor.
For this particular subject, the issue of dental hygiene has been poorly addressed so far. We're over-analyzing the issue here. Saying that we must supplement to reach our dental goals on 811 is like saying we need to incorporate raw animal products into a vegan diet. We know that raw animal products will not help (only give us a false sense of "grounding") and to thrive on a plant-based diet we just need to increase the carbs/calories.
So with the dental issue, we need to remember that with variety of food/sugar/water/sunshine/sleep/exercise we have our human essentials covered and that just because we have teeth problems we should not start thinking otherwise. Just because we eat 811 doesn't mean we are indestructible...pick up a damn tooth brush and clean yer teeth. It works, trust me.
Moreover, can we consider "ideal" a diet following which you have to worry about plenty of things, like
IMO If fruit and greens are our ideal foods, we shouldn't care about all these things!
I study Medicine, so I love science. However, I think that the more you study Nutritional Biochemistry, the more you don't want to follow this diet, because of all the things I've written above. Therefore are not interested in the Nutritional Biochemistry!
Is there any other way of eating that is more nutritionally sound then this? I haven't studied nutrition, health, biochemistry or diet myself but my guess is doing so would only reaffirm that this lifestyle is the most nutritionally sound.
Also I think it's important that we not overlook the conditions we live in (outside of the tropics, toxic environments, depleted soils, etc.) as having a direct impact on our nutrition or lack there of.
In my last sentence there is an error: I don't know why I have written "are not interested" instead of "I am not interested"! Excuse me!