Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.
So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.
So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.
Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;
That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.
I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.
Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.
There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.
Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.
As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.
I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!
So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.
p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.
Replies are closed for this discussion.
They eat insects for b12 but we don't have to go there as we can use supplements. An evolutionary advantage, if you ask me, but whatever works.
And want to say how much I am appreciating this post and all the informative comments; so very helpful, esp the phosphorus ratio info. Have only read this far into the comments but am wondering as I read just how much overt fats are playing into these dental issues. Perhaps need to follow overts more stridently with mega-greens? Will keep reading to see if this has been addressed already.
Am considering a commitment to overt-free - in part to protect my teeth...
Durian Blossom, we don't need to eat insects or take supplements for B12. It is produced by bacteria within our body.
Some people have deficiencies due to a cobalt-depleted food supply, disrupted digestive microflora, or genetic issues such as lack of IF (intrinsic factor.) But this is a far cry from saying that it is a choice between eating insects or taking supplements.
You know I wonder the same, 'cause I just saw a doc about Chimpanzees (called "Chimpanzee") and in the film they ate a Monkey!!!
And that really got me thinking...they do eat animals products too, maybe just a little, but still. :/ should we do something similar? Are we missing something in our diet?
Chimpanzees eat some animal stuff here and there, but it's more for fun and 'political' reasons (eg. intimidation) I don't think they really 'need' it.
For us humans the science is pretty clear that we don't need any so until proven otherwise there's no reason to consume any.
Thanks for the link PK :) Really interesting article!
A monkey's life sure does sound fun :D
I don't eat any nuts in my diet, and usually have breakfast as my biggest fruit meal, with loads of greens in the evening, so I guess I eat quite like a chimpanzee/primate. I don't think 40% of my calories come from greens at the moment though as I'm eating so much summery fruit!!! I eat a lot more greens in winter.
Have a lovely day and thanks for sharing :)
I saw your other discussion and blood test results here:
While none of your readings were anything to panic about, the very slightly elevated ALP result is one more thing that makes me suspicious of osteoporosis as this is indicative of bone disease.
Now the good news is, if you have osteoporosis, is that within 1-2 years, by eating high calorie nutrient and calcium dense foods that are raw and unprocessed, you can rebuild healthy bone tissue.
High ALP could be indicative of positive bone growth as well, and or liver problems. You may also want to have an md order some blood tests that further test liver functions. You mentioned drinking alcohol, and while you may feel that you did not drink as much as your friends did, in some people, liver damage can happen almost immediately with cirrhosis being one of the main problems. As some cells of your liver may have been changed, you liver may not be working optimally. The liver is a secondary organ of digestion breaking down our fructose and starches into more usable components and removing any toxins in our foods.
My liver function tests are normal and I have no other issues of liver problems.
Hi PK, I'm curious about you :)
How long have you been 811? Do you have or had some tooth problem as well?
Thanks for the information, I just started 100%, I love it, make sense to me but I must admit that reading this tooth problems got me a little afraid...
I love eating oranges btw ;)
Excellent thread and very informative.
Having read through it it struck me that if you strive to obtain 2.5 X calcium compared to phosphorous to maintain healthy bones and teeth, how does eating large quantities of bananas affect this aim with over 4 times more phosphorous than calcium achieved with eating bananas alone.
Yes I agree Harrison, the mixed messages can be a problem. I know you and I always seem to end up chatting about this ;-)
DR and I recommend what is working for the long termers and getting the bulk of calories from bananas seems to be the key, including for Doug. I think you may be the first person we know of who is long term and doesn't thrive on narna's. Doug (& I) have put many many people on banana island with fantastic results. Not saying you are wrong or anything with your theory on the calcium to phosphorus ratio but I just can't imagine nature making it so tedious to meet, seems somewhat counterintuitive and unnecessary on a nutrient-rich diet. Having malabsorption issues/not getting enough calories in general seems more likely to me.
It's worth further investigation, what is your height and weight if you don't mind me asking? And how many calories do you get a day consistently?
Cool thanks Harrison, I feel like I know you a bit better now! You sound like you are doing great and have found your happy place. Fortunately you haven't faced many health-compromising challenges like in Stephens case of taking drugs (recreational and prescription), serious alcohol issues for 20years, bleeding gums for years when brushing, b12 deficiency and anorexic weight for a number of years (& getting down to 39kgs in a fast). All big stress on the system. How much of a part do you feel this would play in his present state? I guess that's why I sort of feel his case is very different to yours and making comparisons may be barking up the wrong tree... but hey I'm not sure and I think your suggestion is worth a go, I hope Stephen is willing to try it.
I will let you in on a little secret --> I like jakfruit better than bananas! Oh how I wish I could eat it at every meal, just maybe I need to do that? The only problem is finding a country that doesn't cut it unripe and want to chuck it in the deep fryer
I appreciate your contribution here Harrison and I hope you don't think I'm implying that you were making anything up? I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my inquiry as that, I certainly don't think that. I'm just trying to connect all the dots. And like I said "I think your suggestion if worth a go".
Anyway I think you get the point I'm trying to make and I get the point you're trying to make. I don't think either should be dismissed. :)
One thing is for certain, elderly people in this society with osteoporosis are definitely not eating too many bananas!