Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.
So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.
So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.
Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;
That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.
I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.
Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.
There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.
Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.
As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.
I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!
So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.
p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.
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Sorry for your tooth problems.
Everyone I know has teeth issues. Literally. And most of them eat standard diets. They brush with flouride twice a day, drink flouridated water (flouride is toxic!), get their teeth cleaned multiple times a year, and get lots of fillings/ false teeth.
I don't think it's anything particular to 80-10-10, except that the bacteria in the mouth love the sugar, just as we do. If we eat a diet with animal products (acidic--weakens the teeth) or grains (acidic--weakens the teeth AND high in carbs which feed the bacteria) we will still have teeth issues and have additional health issues.
The extent of the decay you are describing likely started prior to going 8-1-1.
I personally think that there are a couple of things going on... generations of poor diet caused smaller jaws, explaining why your teeth are close together. Teeth close together gives a haven for bacteria. If you had flossed, you would have smelled a rancid odor. I have heard multiple dentists say this joke, "You only have to floss the teeth you want to keep."
Your mom may had inadequate mineral intake and lack of adequate vitamin D, leading to your teeth not being formed well in the womb. We are exposed to a lot of heavy metals (you ate fish for 4 years!) and toxic pollutants and our industrialized food supply means that soils are depleted and we are not getting enough minerals.
Some people are genetically lucky. I read about this in a book by a forensic anthropologist. He said that sometimes an unidentified skull is found with the teeth in perfect condition, and this confuses the anthropologist about the age of the skeleton. These lucky people have a genetic condition where the teeth constantly produce dentin, the hard outer substance of the teeth. Also, some people seem to produce saliva of a pH that is unfriendly to bacteria. Hard to say if this is related to health or genetics or a combo of both.
Honestly, it sounds like your life on 80-10-10 has been great besides the tooth issues. And it sounds too late for your teeth. Root canals are a bad idea for several reasons. I would consider pulling those teeth that need them. Good luck!
You don't see the flaring problem with his oral hygiene. it is my opinion but it is very good chance that if Stephen would have used something to control the bacteria that we would not be having this discussion. Brushing just with water might work for some but not if you have issues with your gums or the bacteria has colonized.
take a look and listen
The interview can be found here: http://mizar5.com/NaraOneRadio.html
Hi Mikey, not convinced this is a dental hygiene issue as I had a bone density scan done and I have 77% of the density I should have at 38 years old. The density of a 60 year old. They weren't surprised about my teeth issues.
I am sorry to read about your result, but at the same time, I have hope that you can arrest further symtoms and recover from your problems. You may not be able to save some of your teeth, but you should be able to rebuild and repair your remaining teeth and bones.
According to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute, active males require 3000 calories a day. Extreme athletes may need to add more. This is for basic energy requirements as well as to ward off deficiencies such as not consuming enough calcium.
For optimum bone and dental healthy, keep calcium phosphorus ratios 1:1 or better, and eat about 1-2 pounds of greens a day:
Now when eating 3k or more calories a day, and rebuilding and repairing body tissues, you may gain some healthy weight. Please read here about healthy causes of weight gain:
I know it sound cliche around here, but it may take a year or two to see optimum results. But as you will read in my greens blog, you can stop, control, reverse, and even heal low bone density issues.
Good luck, and Peace, PK
Hi Stephen and Ashley,
Sorry to hear about your teeth issues.. let me add my story and 2c.
When I started 811 in 2010 I went to the dentist because I had 3 damaged molars with huge cavities.
They made an x-ray and it turned out that I have 2 more teeth that looked good from outside but rotten inside.. so I ended up losing 5 teeth.. I lost 2 more before.. +3 wisdom tooth..
So to sum it up, I lost 10 (TEN!!!) teeth by age 32 because of bad lifestyle choices (+maybe some inherited bad conditions/genes).. I also need to get new caps for 4 in the front so that's 14 in total..:(
2+ years into this lifestyle and I have no teeth issues at all, no more bleeding gums like I had before.
If I hadn't have all my bad teeth extracted back then, they would've most likely crumbled in a year or 2 so I second Greenmama on this, get rid of the bad teeth that got messed up from decades of bad lifestyle (or bad inherited conditions) and move on.
Also if you don't have before/after x-rays to compare, it's impossible to say that it was caused by 811.
Just curious, what did you do with the gaps? Did you get fake teeth or put in spacers or just allow your teeth to move. I have heard some dentists argue that leaving gaps can cause bone loss. But is that hype to sell expensive implants?
Do you continue to get dental care and x-rays?
I had my wisdom teeth removed and on one of them, the gums did not heal flush against the next tooth over, causing a pocket that exposed the root that was hard to clean, which caused that tooth to start to decay. I had that filled with composite, despite the strong discouragement of my dentist, who said that would not hold up to chewing pressure.
Sigh. Once you have problems, it's hard to fix them.
Great points Rawbert. Decay often starts from the inside and takes years to develop typically. With out xrays its impossible to prove a point. Its a bit like having the first blood test ever and it comes back negative and people freak out but forget that unless we have some references to go back to it doesnt mean much really.
I remember a mate went to the gym with his mates whilst eating vegan. He emailed me and said 'Ive no strength as a vegan!! this isnt working!' I said 'what did you lift recently and what could you lift in the past?'. He said 'That was the first time in the gym doing bench press and I was pathetic...'.
For any claims to be made against or for this lifestyle one needs to provide clinical evidence. Ie a measure USATF course time, before and after longterm blood tests, dental xrays etc otherwise its folly to jump to conclusions to make radical claims for or against IMHO.
Sorry to hear you're having problems.
If you're B12 deficient, chances are you're k2 deficient too. Without K2, your bones and teeth will not be in good shape. There are no reliable K2 tests, so this is hard to substantiate.
But If you want K2 you need to look where there's bacteria producing it.
Most animal foods contain K2 to some degree because while the animals were living they hosted bacteria inside of them which produced it. If you're not going to eat animal foods and get is second hand, that means you're entirely reliant on the bacteria inside of you.
However, that puts some people in a bind because they've used antibiotics, recreational drugs, and other substances which decimate the intestinal flora inside of them. Studies show that without outside intervention, even one dose of antibiotics is enough to cause what is likely a permanent changes to our flora. I've written about this issue here.
So to start, if you do nothing else, I'd start taking a K2 supplement.
However, since your teeth are already in rough shape, and you could theoretically have a range of nutrient production, absorption, or conversion shortfalls which may be contributing, you might want to take more drastic measures.
If I were you I'd be considering taking a supplement that contains K2 (MK-7 specifically), D3, and calcium.
Also, dentists are pretty much the only medical professionals worth visiting when you're not injured, in my opinion. I go twice a year for cleanings, and consider the service well worth it.
Quite a bit of research has linked daily flossing with reduced chance of tooth decay. You might want to consider taking it up.
This article was very helpful to me. Unfortunately, I do drink tap water, put through a carbon filter, because I do not have the money for a better filtration system. I will look into the K2 supplement for my family.
Stephen is already eating animal products.
But Ashley isn't...
They say 'only floss the teeth you want to keep'.