3 years and 8 months 811 raw vegan – Teeth Issues

Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.

So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.

So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.

Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;

100% raw for the entire time on this diet, no exceptions
1 non-vegan raw meal (salmon) 3 months into the diet
Majority mono fruit meals from the beginning for morning and lunch
Majority one fruit plus greens for dinner
Averaged about 3000-3500 calories over the years and really couldn’t have force fed myself anymore without gagging.
I’m 5’10”, 48kgs for 2.5 years up to current weight of 56kgs
Quantity of greens has varied over the years from none for a couple of 2 to 3 month periods early on to a couple of heads of lettuce a day. Over the last 1.5 years I’ve eaten more than I’d have liked to.
Last year I had 6 small binges on raw gourmet over the period of a year. A binge for me was having it for dinner and lunch for a few days in a row so nothing that major. This was in Bangkok at Rasayana which a lot of you long termer 811 travelers will be familiar with and is known for being light on the fat/nuts. I also had it a couple times the year before in Hawaii and Canada but hardly worth mentioning.
Spent 2.5 years travelling in the tropics following the fruit/durian trail with plenty of money (no stress) eating the best tropical fruits in the world. Best time of my life! I’ve been back in Melbourne for 4 months.
Any fruit that was found to be not quite ripe I have always discarded.
I rarely have eaten much acidic fruit as I don’t really like it.
I eat organic as much as is available.
Plenty of sunshine and my current vitamin D level is 314nmol/L (125ng/ml) which in Australia is over 4 times the normal level with no supplementation
The first year sleep was disrupted by playing in bands but since quitting music at the end of 2009 I’ve been averaging 12 hours in bed with probably 10 of that being asleep. The whole time in the tropics I went to bed religiously with the sun and rose with the sun.
Was diagnosed with severe B12 deficiency (86pmol/L) in March this year and have aggressively treated it with shots ever since and my levels are now high (1476pmol/L).
I’m no athlete but I travelled with my bike and have gotten plenty of exercise over the years. I currently run 3 times a week and have been doing so for the last 6 months and workout at least 3 times a week which has always been body weight but have recently joined a gym.
Water intake has varied but never been under 2 liters a day and on average around 3 liters over the years. Hydration level of 76% was measured before fasting at the end of 2010.
Did a 35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama.
Have a history of recreational drugs and alcohol but nothing out of the ordinary for Australia. Basically just the 20 something party lifestyle.
Went vegan 15 years ago at 23 years old, initially a fruit based raw diet for 6 months and then to cooked vegan until 30 then added fish back into my diet till 34 and then 811.
Past dental health; great teeth as a child with only a few fillings in my baby teeth. No fillings in my adult teeth that I can recall. At 17 my dentist said he could put my teeth in a catalog they were that perfect. At 19 had wisdom teeth pain for a few months but ignored it. At 25 wisdom teeth pain came back and finally went to the dentist to find I had compacted wisdom teeth. This had pushed all my teeth closer together slightly twisting some especially in the bottom front. Had wisdom teeth out but required no other dental work. Have had no pain or sensitivity till May last year when my tooth crumbled at 37 years of age. Started getting a dull ache in my left side of the jaw in March this year and increased sensitivity. Got to a point a month ago where I was having trouble chewing even a salad so 3 weeks ago I went to the dentist. Earlier this week my second molar crumbled.
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.

That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.

I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.

Thank you,

Stephen

Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.

There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.

Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.

As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.

I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!

So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.

Thanks,

Stephen :)

p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 18, 2012 at 1:57am

Sorry for your tooth problems.

Everyone I know has teeth issues. Literally. And most of them eat standard diets. They brush with flouride twice a day, drink flouridated water (flouride is toxic!), get their teeth cleaned multiple times a year, and get lots of fillings/ false teeth.

I don't think it's anything particular to 80-10-10, except that the bacteria in the mouth love the sugar, just as we do. If we eat a diet with animal products (acidic--weakens the teeth) or grains (acidic--weakens the teeth AND high in carbs which feed the bacteria) we will still have teeth issues and have additional health issues.

The extent of the decay you are describing likely started prior to going 8-1-1.

I personally think that there are a couple of things going on... generations of poor diet caused smaller jaws, explaining why your teeth are close together. Teeth close together gives a haven for bacteria. If you had flossed, you would have smelled a rancid odor. I have heard multiple dentists say this joke, "You only have to floss the teeth you want to keep."

Your mom may had inadequate mineral intake and lack of adequate vitamin D, leading to your teeth not being formed well in the womb. We are exposed to a lot of heavy metals (you ate fish for 4 years!) and toxic pollutants and our industrialized food supply means that soils are depleted and we are not getting enough minerals.

Some people are genetically lucky. I read about this in a book by a forensic anthropologist. He said that sometimes an unidentified skull is found with the teeth in perfect condition, and this confuses the anthropologist about the age of the skeleton. These lucky people have a genetic condition where the teeth constantly produce dentin, the hard outer substance of the teeth. Also, some people seem to produce saliva of a pH that is unfriendly to bacteria. Hard to say if this is related to health or genetics or a combo of both.

Honestly, it sounds like your life on 80-10-10 has been great besides the tooth issues. And it sounds too late for your teeth. Root canals are a bad idea for several reasons. I would consider pulling those teeth that need them. Good luck!

Permalink Reply by Mikey on July 22, 2012 at 12:33pm

You don't see the flaring problem with his oral hygiene. it is my opinion but it is very good chance that if Stephen would have used something to control the bacteria that we would not be having this discussion. Brushing just with water might work for some but not if you have issues with your gums or the bacteria has colonized.

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Permalink Reply by Stephen on July 23, 2012 at 3:43pm

Hi Mikey, not convinced this is a dental hygiene issue as I had a bone density scan done and I have 77% of the density I should have at 38 years old. The density of a 60 year old. They weren't surprised about my teeth issues.

Permalink Reply by PK on July 24, 2012 at 8:15am

@Stephen,

I am sorry to read about your result, but at the same time, I have hope that you can arrest further symtoms and recover from your problems. You may not be able to save some of your teeth, but you should be able to rebuild and repair your remaining teeth and bones.

According to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute, active males require 3000 calories a day. Extreme athletes may need to add more. This is for basic energy requirements as well as to ward off deficiencies such as not consuming enough calcium.

For optimum bone and dental healthy, keep calcium phosphorus ratios 1:1 or better, and eat about 1-2 pounds of greens a day:

http://www.30bananasaday.com/profiles/blogs/greens

Now when eating 3k or more calories a day, and rebuilding and repairing body tissues, you may gain some healthy weight. Please read here about healthy causes of weight gain:

Healthy Weight Gain

I know it sound cliche around here, but it may take a year or two to see optimum results. But as you will read in my greens blog, you can stop, control, reverse, and even heal low bone density issues.

Good luck, and Peace, PK

Permalink Reply by Rawbert on June 18, 2012 at 2:31am

Hi Stephen and Ashley,

Sorry to hear about your teeth issues.. let me add my story and 2c.

When I started 811 in 2010 I went to the dentist because I had 3 damaged molars with huge cavities.

They made an x-ray and it turned out that I have 2 more teeth that looked good from outside but rotten inside.. so I ended up losing 5 teeth.. I lost 2 more before.. +3 wisdom tooth..

So to sum it up, I lost 10 (TEN!!!) teeth by age 32 because of bad lifestyle choices (+maybe some inherited bad conditions/genes).. I also need to get new caps for 4 in the front so that's 14 in total..:(

2+ years into this lifestyle and I have no teeth issues at all, no more bleeding gums like I had before.

If I hadn't have all my bad teeth extracted back then, they would've most likely crumbled in a year or 2 so I second Greenmama on this, get rid of the bad teeth that got messed up from decades of bad lifestyle (or bad inherited conditions) and move on.

Also if you don't have before/after x-rays to compare, it's impossible to say that it was caused by 811.

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 18, 2012 at 3:37am

Just curious, what did you do with the gaps? Did you get fake teeth or put in spacers or just allow your teeth to move. I have heard some dentists argue that leaving gaps can cause bone loss. But is that hype to sell expensive implants?

Do you continue to get dental care and x-rays?

I had my wisdom teeth removed and on one of them, the gums did not heal flush against the next tooth over, causing a pocket that exposed the root that was hard to clean, which caused that tooth to start to decay. I had that filled with composite, despite the strong discouragement of my dentist, who said that would not hold up to chewing pressure.

Sigh. Once you have problems, it's hard to fix them.

Permalink Reply by DURIANRIDER on June 18, 2012 at 8:19am

Great points Rawbert. Decay often starts from the inside and takes years to develop typically. With out xrays its impossible to prove a point. Its a bit like having the first blood test ever and it comes back negative and people freak out but forget that unless we have some references to go back to it doesnt mean much really.

I remember a mate went to the gym with his mates whilst eating vegan. He emailed me and said 'Ive no strength as a vegan!! this isnt working!' I said 'what did you lift recently and what could you lift in the past?'. He said 'That was the first time in the gym doing bench press and I was pathetic...'.

For any claims to be made against or for this lifestyle one needs to provide clinical evidence. Ie a measure USATF course time, before and after longterm blood tests, dental xrays etc otherwise its folly to jump to conclusions to make radical claims for or against IMHO.

Permalink Reply by Andrew on June 18, 2012 at 3:43am

Hi Stephen.

Sorry to hear you're having problems.

If you're B12 deficient, chances are you're k2 deficient too. Without K2, your bones and teeth will not be in good shape. There are no reliable K2 tests, so this is hard to substantiate.

But If you want K2 you need to look where there's bacteria producing it.

Most animal foods contain K2 to some degree because while the animals were living they hosted bacteria inside of them which produced it. If you're not going to eat animal foods and get is second hand, that means you're entirely reliant on the bacteria inside of you.

However, that puts some people in a bind because they've used antibiotics, recreational drugs, and other substances which decimate the intestinal flora inside of them. Studies show that without outside intervention, even one dose of antibiotics is enough to cause what is likely a permanent changes to our flora. I've written about this issue here.

So to start, if you do nothing else, I'd start taking a K2 supplement.

Normally I am firmly against supplementing because it has a record of backfiring.

However, since your teeth are already in rough shape, and you could theoretically have a range of nutrient production, absorption, or conversion shortfalls which may be contributing, you might want to take more drastic measures.

If I were you I'd be considering taking a supplement that contains K2 (MK-7 specifically), D3, and calcium.

Also, dentists are pretty much the only medical professionals worth visiting when you're not injured, in my opinion. I go twice a year for cleanings, and consider the service well worth it.

Quite a bit of research has linked daily flossing with reduced chance of tooth decay. You might want to consider taking it up.

Permalink Reply by Greenmama on June 18, 2012 at 4:00am

This article was very helpful to me. Unfortunately, I do drink tap water, put through a carbon filter, because I do not have the money for a better filtration system. I will look into the K2 supplement for my family.

Permalink Reply by Tarah @ 40 Below Fruity on June 18, 2012 at 7:01am