Whilst I was in Chanthaburi at the durian festival in Thailand in May last year, I had a quarter of a rear lower molar crumble away. At the time I passed it off as past lifestyle bad habits catching up with me and continued on. Over the last few months my teeth became sensitive and I developed a dull ache in the left side of my jaw. I ignored it for a couple of months until I saw a post on facebook of another 811er having teeth issues. So I went to the dentist - an expensive holistic one in the heart of Melbourne. I had to have an x-ray before seeing him which he viewed before I was called in. He said my teeth overall are severely decayed and in the top 1% of cases in Australia. He said he personally has never seen a patient with such bad decay. This was before he even looked in my mouth. The x-ray showed that most of my rear molars are hollow and on the verge of crumbling. He then proved it to me by gently probing areas of decay which made me cry out in pain. He told me I have to quit the soft drinks, lollies, chocolates, and highly processed sugary foods immediately if I have any chance of saving my teeth. He gave me an estimate of $20,000 to repair the damage done which included a minimum of 3 root canals and 16 large fillings. I left his office in shock.
So I started researching and came to what I consider a solution which is not 100% vegan. In the last 2 and a half weeks I have added a small amount of non-vegan foods to my diet. I won’t discuss that any further here as I respect that this is a vegan forum. I’ve decided to post this here in the hope that a discussion can be initiated.
So what I’d like to ask this community is what have I done wrong and is there a vegan way to correct it? I would like to be 100% vegan but I currently believe that 99% is the way to go. I’m desperate for a solution which has led me down the 1% non-vegan foods path. It was not a decision I made lightly.
Before we start this I’ll tell you a bit about what I have been doing as a raw vegan;
That’s all I can think of at the moment. Ask for anything I may have missed.
I request that only people who have been on this diet for a minimum of 3 years or have a nutritional background reply. The reason being is that at 2 and a half years on 811 I thought my teeth were the best they had ever been and in general I felt amazing. Things only started going downhill a couple of months after that with the crumbling of my first tooth.
Thanks for all the replies and sorry it's taken me awhile to answer questions, I've been entertaining a friend from interstate (also 811 with teeth issues who lives with another 811 with teeth issues) so haven't had much time on the computer in the last few days.
There's been some interesting suggestions especially getting a bone scan and possible liver issues. I'm getting a bone scan on the 4th of July so will let you all know the results of that and will look further into possible liver issues although my liver function tests are fine.
Dental hygiene is a hard one as I have an ex girlfriend friend and have heard before that too much brushing/flossing can lead to receding gums. I currently rinse and brush after every meal but will look into some of the less invasive flosses.
As for my non-vegan consumption, it's limited to invertebrates and some eggs and makes up about 1% of my diet. As far as I can see this is the example nature gives us via our cousin primates and that is where I currently choose to put my faith. Not really interested in debating this.
I agree that fasting could have been the cause of this but I also think that after a year and a half if this diet is the healthiest my body should have been replenishing anything that was depleted. Judging by how I've been feeling I've obviously been lacking something. Since the additions to my diet I've been feeling incredible! Things improved with the B12 shots but still felt pretty average. Feel like I'm thriving for the first time in my life!
So I'm still 99% 811 raw vegan so I hope people can still accept me here. I've been doing this for 3 weeks and will be getting another blood test at the 3 month mark and then another blood test, dental x-ray, and bone density scan at 6 months. So consider this an experiment and hey if it doesn't work I can be the poster boy for what not to do! I can't afford any dental work anyway.
p.s In regards to my weight, I've been around 56kgs for my whole adult life. Within the first few months of 811 I lost 8 kgs and have only put it back on since fasting. So if I was anorexic and fasting is bad then I'm very confused.
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Forgot to mention dental Hygiene!
Since starting 811 have brushed once a day in the evening before bed with water and a soft brush. Have never been a flosser as my teeth are tight against each other and when I've tried I've consistently cut into my gums. Dentist never saw that as an issue.
Another thing I thought to ask you about was salt consumption...
And I so appreciate your willingness to go into detail about this.
The "edema" or foot swelling can have many causes so I looked over some of your posts. That pic possibly looks to be nephrotic syndrome with hypoalbuminemia. Mixing in a "fast" in the middle of very low protein diet can trigger that situation if your liver and kidneys aren't at 100%. I definitely would not fast at all and I would bring your protein to 12% by adding more protein rich vegetables to see how you do until your calories are ramped up enough.
You might be on a 90/5/5 or 80/10/10 but to get adequate protein it can't be done mixed in with low overall calories and fasting.
I would bet your liver and kidneys have taken a beating in the past and I would do everything to avoid anemia, decreased immunity, osteoporosis, kidney damage, or liver damage. Fasting in the past has been well known to create all those conditions.
I would say your tooth erosion are actually "symptoms" of other health issues that you need to deal with and getting some blood tests should be on the very top of your list.
Milk thistle twice a day would also be a good idea.
Example of why calorie restricting on a 90/5/5 or 80/10/10 plan is not a good idea:
1. This guy eats 7200 calories per day doing a 80/10/10 diet. He's pulling in 360 / 4 or 180 grams of protein a day. This guy will get all the nutrition, protein, vitamins and minerals he needs and have plenty of energy to run marathons or triathlons yet he's still fit and in good shape and has kept his metabolism very high. His body repairs damage very quickly.
2. This guy eats 3600 calories per day doing a 80/10/10 diet. He's pulling in 360 / 4 or 90 grams of protein a day. This guy will get all the nutrition, protein, vitamins and minerals he needs and has plenty of energy.
3. Guy "averages" 1200 calories a day on 80/10/10 including fasts. His protein is only 30 grams per day. This guy is going to end up with malnutrition, notable muscle wasting, possible osteoporosis, and vitamin and mineral deficiencies at the very least. He's essentially getting only 1/3rd the vitamins and minerals, protein, fat and carbs of the guy above and only 1/6th of everything the athlete at #1 position is getting.
4. Guy "averages" 1200 calories a day on 90/5/5 including fasts. But his protein is only 15 grams per day. This guy is going to end up with malnutrition, massive muscle wasting, impaired immune function, and irregularities in numerous bodily functions and possible osteoporosis not to mention vitamin and mineral deficiencies.
Well my tests show low total protein but I don't restrict my calories.
This problem can be indicative of cirrhosis of the liver too. This is a hardening and change in liver tissues usually resulting form alcohol consumption.
One of the main things patients are advised to so is avoid salt. (Here)
Because the liver acts almost like a second stomach in breaking down nutrients for further use by the body via the blood stream, if there is damage and changes to the liver, the liver may not be able to provide enough nutrients and or glucose to the body resulting in malnutrition.
Even if one eats thousands of calories, the liver will only uptake what it can manage at a time. If the liver cannot process enough nutrients, the body will suffer with weight loss being a consequence in some people.
As I recommended previously, get tested for cirrhosis and other liver problems, plus a bone density scan. (Osteoporosis and oral problems could be side effects of liver problems too.)
If you do have such symptoms, you may have to cut back on some activities. For example take buses and public transportation instead of riding your bike. You can still do some mild toning exercises like yoga, but you may have to go into a kind of semi hybernation mode to increase your quality of life.
The good news is if you have these problems, but avoid the habits that caused them, they may not necessarily get worse.
For example, I have a bum kidney from my SAD days. I will probably never be able to fully cure and or rebuild the damaged tissues, but I know how to manage things the way they are. Eating fat free raw fruits and greens help me feel my best, and I know I cannot do heavy exercise. As long as I follow the rules so to speak of my condition, I am fine, and I can live a normal life just like everyone else.
Keep us updated with your tests and progress.
Thanks for the info PK, I've booked in for a bone density scan on the 4th of July. How do you get tested for cirrhosis?
My liver function tests are in range though.
Did the feet swelling happened in connection to the "35 day water fast at the end of 2010 re-feeding on tropical fruits in Panama" (- with Loren Lockman...?). Or during other post-fasting re-feeding period...?
The "feet swelling" symptom can be the result of physiologically improper (imbalanced) way of re-feeding after the fast, which can happen specially because of overconsumption of liquidized foods (juices, smoothies) or some specific foods in too short time, when body needs its own (more) time to readjust and rebalance, and it often happens that there is a disconnection and gap between the body's actual physiological needs (instinctive cravings) versus psychological (mental/emotional) habitual and programming based cravings.
Justin, Fasting more than a day or two is extremely unhealthy. Need proof? This thread is a good start. 35 days is a good way to lose a good deal of bone density and your teeth! Many people have died before reaching 35 days and some of the harm it does is hard to correct. Fasting causes general weakness, anemia, gum disease, scurvy, muscle wasting, liver damage, kidney damage, ketosis, bone density loss, slow healing, dementia, mineral and vitamin deficiency, low metabolism, low basil temperature. hypothyroidism, hairless, low estrogen, low testosterone, 40 times the rate of sudden death in the general population and the end result on a continual fast is always death unless your stop before you die.
Fasting for more than a day or two is hardly healthy. Instead of eliminating toxins from the body, it creates them, and puts a great strain on the heart, kidneys, and liver. The body not only burns up fat, but muscle and organs as well. No one can last for long on a fast and the end result is a damaged body in need of repair.
I warned you before your fast not to fast Stephen. You were too enervated to do a fast IMHO.
IMHO all that long fast did was hit you for 6.
Thanks Harley but that doesn't help me.